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1. A live round has a bullet pressed into a case that is filled with propellant with an explosive primer pressed into the butt of the case.
2. A dummy round (Hollywood style) has a regular bullet pressed into a case empty of propellant, but with a b-b to cause a rattle. Hollywood armorers apparently do not drill a hole in the case as is done for dummy rounds that real shooters use (which will also usually have a bright-colored dummy bullet to further distinguish them).
3. A blank round uses the same propellant-loaded and primed case as a life round, but with the end crimped or with a soft wad instead of a bullet. It will still expend a shock wave, heat, and gasses that are dangerous at short range.
The important point is that they are all nearly indistinguishable from one another as seen through the gate of a single-action revolver such as was used on this set. The only differences would be the manufacturer stamps on the case butts and however that particular armorer is handling the appearances of the butt of the primers.
That's why the armorers--who are the only persons who knows for sure what case butt tell-tales are on the particular rounds they used--should be the ones who load the gun and hand it to the actors.
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
To clarify:
1. A live round has a bullet pressed into a case that is filled with propellant with an explosive primer pressed into the butt of the case.
2. A dummy round (Hollywood style) has a regular bullet pressed into a case empty of propellant, but with a b-b to cause a rattle. Hollywood armorers apparently do not drill a hole in the case as is done for dummy rounds that real shooters use (which will also usually have a bright-colored dummy bullet to further distinguish them).
3. A blank round uses the same propellant-loaded and primed case as a life round, but with the end crimped or with a soft wad instead of a bullet. It will still expend a shock wave, heat, and gasses that are dangerous at short range.
The important point is that they are all nearly indistinguishable from one another as seen through the gate of a single-action revolver such as was used on this set. The only differences would be the manufacturer stamps on the case butts and however that particular armorer is handling the appearances of the butt of the primers.
That's why the armorers--who are the only persons who knows for sure what case butt tell-tales are on the particular rounds they used--should be the ones who load the gun and hand it to the actors.
I had never used blanks or had even seen them, which is why I'm questioning the looks of them compared to live bullets.
All blanks are the same, in that they are all extremely easy to distinguish as a blank at a glance (I'm not talking sound, just sight)?
Hannah's dad had used recycled parts to create live bullets. So it would be extremely easy to see, by sight, that those bullets were live rounds and not blanks? Even if some of the recycled parts may have come from blanks?
From the article that I'd previously linked:
Quote:
About a week after the shooting, Kenney spoke with authorities several times, telling investigators that the ammunition he provided included dummy rounds and blanks, which he got from a manufacturer called Starline Brass. On Oct. 29, the weapons expert called investigators because he believed he knew how the dummy and live rounds got mixed together. A few years ago, he received “reloaded ammunition” from a friend that had “stuck out to him” because the cartridge had the Starline Brass logo on it. However, he told investigators, Starline Brass doesn’t sell live ammunition. The round, apparently reloaded with components to become live, would have looked similar to the other Starline Brass rounds he provided to the set.
Apparently the live rounds 'looked' like the blank rounds, enough to be over looked by "weapons experts". But you and another are saying that's impossible?
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker
I just used the word "armorer" as it was the first thing that was on my mind. Armorer or assistant director the fact still remains that it was an individual that handed Alec Baldwin a gun and told him that it was "cold". That doesn't excuse Alec Baldwin for not checking the gun himself.
I agree, he should have checked it. And, the AD shouldn't have been the one to take the gun off the cart or to give him the gun.
Quote:
I'm not familiar with blanks that have small holes in the side of the casing with BB's in them. Blank's are designed to be fired making a load noise to simulate a live round being fired. Those so called "blanks" are actually "dummy rounds" made to look like real cartridges in the cylinder of a revolver. There is no gun powder in those rounds, they can't be fired and the BB's are there so an individual can shake them to ensure that they are not live. When firing a blank cartridge both flames and smoke comes out of the gun barrel just like a real one.
In my readings about this I'd seen several stories where they say there is a tiny pinhole in the casings of blanks, to help determine that it is a blank.
Quote:
Obviously if a scene required a gun to be fired it would have to look and sound like a real gun going off. Therefore they would use blanks. Dummy rounds would be used in the cylinder of a revolver for close up shots where the bullets would be clearly visible. In other word's the viewer wouldn't be looking at crimped brass casings.
I don't even know why anything at all was loaded into the gun for that scene. Since Baldwin was not supposed to **** it or pull the trigger.
I had never used blanks or had even seen them, which is why I'm questioning the looks of them compared to live bullets.
All blanks are the same, in that they are all extremely easy to distinguish as a blank at a glance (I'm not talking sound, just sight)?
Hannah's dad had used recycled parts to create live bullets. So it would be extremely easy to see, by sight, that those bullets were live rounds and not blanks? Even if some of the recycled parts may have come from blanks?
From the article that I'd previously linked:
Apparently the live rounds 'looked' like the blank rounds, enough to be over looked by "weapons experts". But you and another are saying that's impossible?
Dummy rounds can be easily made by taking an empty shell casing, resizing and drilling a hole in it, placing a BB(s) into it, then pressing a bullet into the empty casing. Of course leaving the primer out. Hence those recycled parts that you speak of. I doubt very much that any of those recycled parts were from blank cartridges.
Indeed it's very easy to distinguish by appearance between a live round and a blank that is designed to be fired simulating the sound and appearance of a live round being fired. Making blanks to look like live rounds would not be a very good idea for obvious reasons. Of course personal injury lawyer's would have a field day.
Regardless of whether his finger was or wasn’t on the trigger, why would you ever point a weapon at someone who isn’t a threat to you? HE is responsible for pointing and discharging that weapon, because only HE held it in his hands. He is an adult and should have known better, especially as the Producer.
Location: 23.7 million to 162 million miles North of Venus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker
Dummy rounds can be easily made by taking an empty shell casing, resizing and drilling a hole in it, placing a BB(s) into it, then pressing a bullet into the empty casing. Of course leaving the primer out. Hence those recycled parts that you speak of. I doubt very much that any of those recycled parts were from blank cartridges.
Indeed it's very easy to distinguish by appearance between a live round and a blank that is designed to be fired simulating the sound and appearance of a live round being fired. Making blanks to look like live rounds would not be a very good idea for obvious reasons. Of course personal injury lawyer's would have a field day.
Long before Rust...
Hannah's dad made live rounds using recycled parts. (for his personal use or to be used under his supervision?)
Kenney had asked Hannah's dad to supply him with live rounds.
Hannah's dad took a box or two of his homemade rounds and allowed Kenney to use them.
Kenney stole the remaining live rounds and refused to give them back.
Now we're at the point of Rust...
Kenney supplied box(es) of blanks to Rust.
Live rounds were found in the box(es) of blanks.
Kenney said that the live rounds looked similar to the blanks.
Quote:
However, he told investigators, Starline Brass doesn’t sell live ammunition. The round, apparently reloaded with components to become live, would have looked similar to the other Starline Brass rounds he provided to the set.
eta... Hannah's dad had stated that he thinks the live rounds could be those that Kenney had taken from him.
Baldwin claims that “The trigger wasn’t pulled. I didn’t pull the trigger,” the 63-year-old Baldwin insisted. “I would never point a gun at someone and pull the trigger on them, never.”
Is he saying that he would point the gun at someone and not pull the trigger? So, he aimed at the woman he shot, but he didn't pull the trigger?
Didn't he ever learn that you never never never point a gun at anything or anyone you don't plan to shoot.
Hannah's dad made live rounds using recycled parts. (for his personal use or to be used under his supervision?)
Kenney had asked Hannah's dad to supply him with live rounds.
Hannah's dad took a box or two of his homemade rounds and allowed Kenney to use them.
Kenney stole the remaining live rounds and refused to give them back.
Now we're at the point of Rust...
Kenney supplied box(es) of blanks to Rust.
Live rounds were found in the box(es) of blanks.
Kenney said that the live rounds looked similar to the blanks.
There are thousands of people who reload their own ammo using what you could call recycled parts. However the only part that's recycled is the empty shell casing. The primer's, bullet's and powder are all new components.
Dave Halls who was an assistant director claimed that he didn't check every weapon or cartridge that was used on the set. But there were only 5 or 6 rounds* in the gun that Alec Baldwin used to kill Halyna Hutchins and injure Mr. Souza. It really shouldn't have been that difficult or time consuming for Alec Baldwin to have checked that gun for himself. It's not like he would have to sort through boxes of ammo in order to sort out the dummy rounds from the live one's. Not too mention that a blank cartridge is easily distinguishable from a live one.
Indeed there were other's that could be held accountable. I guess that will all have to be sorted out in a court of law and any potential lawsuits of which there will be many. At any rate there shouldn't have been any live rounds whatsoever on that movie set. I think that would fall on the shoulders of the producer's of the movie itself?
*Colt Model 1873 single action army revolvers and their replica's hold 6 rounds but can only be carried safely with 5 rounds and the hammer down on an empty chamber. Some Cimmaron/Uberti replica revolver's have a hammer block where you can c**k the hammer until you hear the first "click" at which point a small metal block located right below the firing pin springs out of the hammer which prevents the hammer from falling on a live round if dropped. They too can be safely carried with 6 rounds only if you know for sure that it has that feature as some models don't have it and they all look identical. --from my previous Post#39
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