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Please look up Nuland talking about whom she wanted in office in post-Yanukovych Ukraine. Hint: it is a leaked phone call.
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Absolutely the State Department was actively attempting to bring Ukraine into the "Western" sphere of influence. I've said that repeatedly.. But HOW did Nuland make that happen. HOW and WHY did Yanukovych lose pro-Russian and argumentatively Putin's support. This is 2014.
It's not an original thought that Putin started to change Russian policy in 2008. That a broken Donbas and destabilized Ukraine of use to him post-2014. Given those two events, to then see Yanukovych seemingly abandoned is enough to ask the question, not to automatically accept: Nuland did it. Putin almost certainly was also attempting to shape events not passively sitting back to watch.
Until someone explains what happened within the Party of Regions, why Putin did not sign the EU peace agreement, to cite Nuland is far from a complete analysis.
Have to leave, I'll read the link and take a look at your above post.
Last edited by EveryLady; 04-12-2022 at 04:34 PM..
These people ( from the pro-Russia "Party of regions" knew that from that point on that their lives were in danger, as much of Yanukovich's.
They KNEW that any resistance was futile from that point on.
Moving from Victoria Nuland passing out cookies to a phone call indicating future support for Poroshenko to now hit squads about to kill pro-Russian legislators is quite a leap. Yanukovych was ridiculed for the "shot at his car" excuse for leaving that night. A similar claim he made for the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada denied by the man in question. Certainly Ukrainians saw Yanukovych as a murderer. The police at his fancy palace mysteriously withdrawn. With his many stolen millions and now no pro-Russian support, leaving was not an unreasonable decision.
Absolutely the State Department was actively attempting to bring Ukraine into the "Western" sphere of influence. I've said that repeatedly.. But HOW did Nuland make that happen. HOW and WHY did Yanukovych lose pro-Russian and argumentatively Putin's support. This is 2014.
It's not an original thought that Putin started to change Russian policy in 2008. That a broken Donbas and destabilized Ukraine of use to him post-2014. Given those two events, to then see Yanukovych seemingly abandoned is enough to ask the question, not to automatically accept: Nuland did it. Putin almost certainly was also attempting to shape events not passively sit back and watch.
Until someone explains what happened within the Party of Regions, why Putin did not sign the EU peace agreement, to cite Nuland is far from a complete analysis.
Have to leave, I'll read the link and take a look at your above post.
Oliver Stone's "Ukraine on Fire" documentary is very insightful re: your questions. I strongly recommend it.
Oliver Stone's "Ukraine on Fire" documentary is very insightful re: your questions. I strongly recommend it.
I detest video (except for entertainment) because its almost impossible to pick up how the documentarian pieces together various events to create an impression without first having an extensive knowledge of the underlying fact base.
Stone is good for seeing the basic assertions, at which point unraveling them to ascertain veracity is an enormous amount of work. Earlier we mentioned Stone, yes, and I typed out how I thought he juxtaposed certain nationalist organizations to create the impact he wanted. That small bit I had some familiarity with if only because I'd gone off and done your assignment on Stepan Bandera.
Don't mind watching, but it would be more to capture why those who watch believe as they do today. Not what necessarily happened.
I detest video (except for entertainment) because its almost impossible to pick up how the documentarian pieces together various events to create an impression without first having an extensive knowledge of the underlying fact base.
Stone is good for seeing the basic assertions, at which point unraveling them to ascertain veracity is an enormous amount of work. Earlier we mentioned Stone, yes, and I typed out how I thought he juxtaposed certain nationalist organizations to create the impact he wanted. That small bit I had some familiarity with if only because I'd gone off and done your assignment on Stepan Bandera.
Don't mind watching, but it would be more to capture why those who watch believe as they do today. Not what necessarily happened.
Images speak quite loudly. This is precisely why people are up in arms over ostensible Russian war crimes.
In the same vein, the documentary shows a lot of images with substantial amounts of germane information.
Try to think of documentaries as "educational entertainment" (no sarcasm). I do and it helps (not just this topic).
No argument can be made for the competence of the Russian army. Conquering vacant land is not an accomplishment.
The Russian army is inept.
Vacant land? Much of that territory was URBANIZED.
I don't expect to change your mind, but if you think that NATO generals including the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff are not aware and have not been alarmed at how much Ukrainian territory Russian troops took over and in how little time they did it, then I don't know what to tell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atxcio
Exactly. Only Russian propagandists say otherwise. Russia has accomplished zilch and lost tons. They are equally a pariah and a joke to the rest of the world at this point.
The only thing less effective than a Russian soldier is a whole army of them.
No, you are incorrect on your assessment; the Russian army is not only not inept, it's far superior in numbers, strength, and fighting capability vs. the Ukrainian army (which is no weak army at all).
Also, the label of "Russian propagandist" is meaningless.
Moving from Victoria Nuland passing out cookies to a phone call indicating future support for Poroshenko to now hit squads about to kill pro-Russian legislators is quite a leap. Yanukovych was ridiculed for the "shot at his car" excuse for leaving that night. A similar claim he made for the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada denied by the man in question. Certainly Ukrainians saw Yanukovych as a murderer. The police at his fancy palace mysteriously withdrawn. With his many stolen millions and now no pro-Russian support, leaving was not an unreasonable decision.
Since you keep on picturing Donbass as some "violent entity," and Kiev's new regime as some "democracy" - have some patience please to watch this video till the end, and I will explain to you what takes place there, right in front of your eyes eight years ago, after that Nationalist coup d'etat.
Someone from the TV station ( the chief editor (?) don't remember his name now ( you see him at 1:12 questioned by the *people,*) - invited one of the popular MPs from the "Party of Regions" ( Oleg Tzaryeov) to participate in the program ( Q&As I think,) and this is what followed.
I hope you understand much better now, WHO came to power in 2014, what kind of forces, and why Yanukovich had to be rescued in a special operation by the Russians and taken out of the country.
Yes, Oleg Tzaryov miraculously survived that night and was not torn into pieces by the crowd of Ukrainian nationalists, but the majority of people from his area ( Dnipro) that tried to organize any resistance to the Nazi are dead by now. (He mentioned it in one of his interviews few years ago.)
But of course, Ukraine is not a Nazi state - oh no, it's all "propaganda" - just ask Oleg Tzaryov and those that made it out of there alive.
BTW after he was beaten up that night, HE was delivered to the police, as someone who "provoked the crowd" apparently, while even daring to show up in the TV studio. ( here you see the journalists arriving to interview him there.)
That's all you need to know about the post-coup "new and democratic Ukraine," the kind the West supports, and what the "democratic perspectives" for any politicians representing South-East looked like at that point in time.
I hope that Ukrainian propaganda machine will not remove these videos from Youtube as it removes anything "inconvenient" lately, anything that doesn't fit in the narrative of "free and democratic Ukraine, attacked by Putin."
Capturing real estate equivalent to the land area of the United Kingdom in a few weeks (some say it took them less than 1 week) is "ineptitude?" You do realize not even the Wehrmacht was this fast, do you?
Bet you think that Trump won because of all those fly over States that are red? Why do MAGA types forget that people vote, not land.
P.S. Hang on, I actually HAVE to translate the text in the beginning of the second video - it's important.
"Oleg Tzaryov in the office of the General Prosecutor's Office (this is instead of the protocol.)
14.04.2014.
After the show "Freedom of Speech," the presidential candidate, Oleg Tzaryov was severely beaten by the members of the "Right Sector."
Tzaryov arrived to participate in the popular talk show to express the point of view of the people of the South East that raised up in a protest, and attempting to prevent the civil war.
The only thing that saved him from death was the decision of the Right Sector commanders to spare him, since the death of a presidential candidate would damage the image of the "Right Sector" in the eyes of the world community.
Beaten and with no clothes on, Tzaryov was delivered to the General Prosecutor's office, with demand that he would refuse of the presidential candidate status and further political struggle.
In spite of the pressure, Tzaryov refused to write such paper and stated it to the journalists that gathered in the lobby."
So now I hope you understand much better what 2014 coup d'etat was all about.
Last edited by erasure; 04-12-2022 at 06:09 PM..
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