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I mean, we could agree that maybe NATO overstepped it's boundries.
But joining NATO is voluntary. And a country has a right to join.
I agree with this logic.
But then by the same logic, Russia is free to react to the perceived threat.
Why the West thought that Russia would not react the way it reacted is not quite understood by me.
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Russia getting mad and waging war on the country is the same as an ex-boyfriend beating the crap out of his ex-girlfriend for going to the police and trying to file a restraining order. In short, this makes Russia look like the unstable ex.
Let me get into more details with it as I did before, because this "short simple version" of the allegory is not that simple.
It's actually the "ex" who knows that his former girlfriend is not all that "emotionally stable" ( being familiar with her history.) And now, after she got rid of the inconvenient "ex," she is inviting the new boyfriend to live in her apartment, next to her "former ex."
And the former "ex" and this "new boyfriend" are known to be adversaries.
That's what it looks like - more so, than the version you introduced.
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I do agree that maybe NATO got bold. But again, it's voluntary and there are conditions it requires for a nation to be able to join.
Well then why anyone think that it wouldn't get the punch back?
Is this what makes some people think that "Putin is crazy"?
Because they thought that he wouldn't dare to respond?
I don't get it.
You should go talk to Erasure's friend. (Don't worry if you hadn't read thru one of her posts, and the reference isn't clear. It's a minor aside; no need to ask me about it.)
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Originally Posted by gwynedd1
The propped up regime rejected Russian influence. The East never rejected Russian influence and never will unless , as some in Western Ukraine have mentioned on talk shows , is ethnically cleansed. It was a coup. You can keep saying we went over this as if it was controversial, but I am not going to let the inmates in the asylum insist upon their mythological realities. its like calling the civil war the war of northern aggression. Had Russia tried to keep Ukraine in the Russian Federation I would have said the same of Western Ukraine. It has always been hostile to Russia and very nationalistic for the reasons I have pointed out. Ukrainian nationalism is itself a manufacture of foreign powers due to the Polish issue which the West now chooses the path of collective amnesia from rich mineral poisoning.
Again, Ukraine to this day pulls the same crap on the Transcarpathian calling them a fake culture all while it complains the Russians call them a fake culture. This again at the very least calls for a Federal system. The same central government goons in my country, the US, keep trying to dissolve the Federal system as well all while people think we are becoming more divided. We are not more divided. Dissolving the Federal system causes division. Why to I care of California wants pot smoking and abortion while Oklahoma bans it? I don't live there.
Only a Federalized Ukraine with lots of autonomy for the different cultures could stability ever be maintained.
The key players are NATO , dominated by the US, and Russia. Its a proxy war been North America , Western Europe, And the remnants of the Anglo Empire vs Asia. Anyone that does not think so needs a box of crayons and a coloring book to occupy themselves, not babble on the internet about geopolitics.
The so-called coup was EIGHT years ago, with an active civil war in the interim. It appears indisputable that Ukraine as a whole is fighting this invasion. Because his view was yours, Putin expected the invasion to be a three-day walk thru. Clearly, he was wrong. Western weapons help but it is Ukrainians who are doing the fighting.
A substantial portion (high percentage per a reference) of the Ukrainian armed forces are from the Eastern half of the country. With the possible exception of Kherson (and some small towns) mayors that include those in the eastern half organized local defenses. Multiple sources comment how opinions CHANGED over the last 8 years, as many looked at the results of Russian "intervention" and did not like what they saw. This includes oligarchs and the local power structure. Pro-Russian voters increasingly are the aged.
The East may not reject Russian culture or language, but Russian power used to mess up their lives appears to be another matter.
Not want to accept that? AN EXAMPLE by an author (Volodymyr Ishchenko at the Freie Universität Berlin) that appeared in Al Jazeera. He is highly critical of arguably "non-democratic" Zelenskyy steps and references continued Western involvement. Describes how Zelenskyy uses the now discredited term "pro-Russian" to further his political interests. No doubt how Putin uses the term "Nazi."
The article begins with an analysis of the Zelenskyy’s government suspension of 11 Ukrainian political parties citing their alleged “links with Russia”. It notes the majority of the suspended parties were small or even insignificant. One exception: the Opposition Platform for Life that came second in the recent elections and now holds 44 seats in the 450-seat Ukrainian Parliament.
BUT:
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Before 2014, there was a large camp in Ukrainian politics calling for closer integration with Russia-led international institutions rather than with those in the Euro-Atlantic sphere, or even for Ukraine entering into a Union State with Russia and Belarus. After the Euromaidan revolution, and Russia’s hostile actions in Crimea and Donbas, however, the pro-Russian camp was marginalised in Ukrainian politics. ...
Most “pro-Russian” parties in Ukraine are first and foremost “pro-themselves” and have autonomous interests and sources of income in Ukraine. They are trying to capitalise on the real grievances of a sizeable minority of Russian-speaking Ukrainian citizens concentrated in the southeastern regions. These parties do command significant public support. ... However, practically every leader and sponsor of these parties with any real influence in Ukraine condemned Russia’s invasion, and are now contributing to Ukraine’s defence. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...russia-parties.
He mentions Medvedchuk - discussed earlier on this thread - noting the Opposition Platform for Life "removed him from the party leadership, condemned Russia’s invasion, and called its members to join the forces defending Ukraine." https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...russia-parties
What will happen after any Russian takeover of Ukraine? Referring once again to Zelenskyy actions against the 11 parties, he says that "could" push some Ukrainians to collaborate with Russia. What about the present?
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Indeed, so far collaboration with the invaders in the occupied areas has been minimal.There is no indication that the public will get behind a pro-Russia party or politician in large numbers. And while Russia would certainly approach these parties first if it decides to install a puppet government in Ukraine, many in their political cadres would likely decline the offer – they would not want to risk their capital, properties and interests in the West. Some of the local leaders who have been elected with the backing of these “pro-Russian” parties have already made it clear that they do not intend to collaborate with the invading forces. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...russia-parties
Erasure, I am going to start charging you $$$ for repeats. The clue is "like I mentioned" - a 2 sentence post not 10 minutes earlier to you. Don't worry about it; it's nothing.
Lucille is quite the character for sure. No one knows exactly what might come out of his mouth.
There was a concerted effort to join the two halves of the country, yes. It began before 2014 but certainly intensified during the civil war period. Earlier in this thread there was a discussion of the types of "education" Ukrainians would need to get the "Nazi" ideas out of their heads.
BEFORE 2014 there were no particular issues on this front.
It was more or less silent agreement that the Western part lives its own cultural life and the East lives by its own customs, beliefs, and so on.
And as long as everyone was minding their own business, that's what Ukraine was, that's how it operated.
When the major floods hit Western part of Ukraine, the "Easterners" went to help them out.
However in 2014, the West made a push to subdue the "Easterners" under their own values and dominance.
And that's when the trouble began.
This was just one of the most visible signs from the get-go.
To be fair, that was a response to the US putting missiles near Russia's border. Both agreed to withdraw. NATO is a defense pact, they have no interest in invading Russia. They have nukes, it would benefit neither side.
You mean NATO's actions in response to Russia literally attacking a nation? Yes, it's a proxy war, and I'm sure there are geopolitical and interests involving military contractors. But none of this would've happened if Russia didn't rely on paranoia for it's policies.
They have been attacking Putin for decades. Most Americans don't know how neoliberalism works. Tired to tell them how the 2008 financial scam worked but its like talking to a brick wall.
The other part has been scripted by Washington and its most powerful financial institution: the International Monetary Fund. It is a different form of pillage, to be sure. The robber barons who have taken over the Russian economy since the fall of the Soviet Union have adopted the practice of the Medici family of fifteenth century Florence: money to get power, power to protect the money.
Washington’s money mandarins, on the other hand, descended upon Russia with enormous wealth and power already in their possession. They have used both to colonize Russia, turning a once developed economy into a Third World country.
The results have been devastating. Over the last eight years, the economy has shrunk by more than half. Russian men can now expect to die in their fifties. The chief economist of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, has noted that the number of Russians living in poverty climbed from two million to sixty million in just a few years.
Russia managed to fend off the World Bank, IMF loan scam. Latin America, Africa and the Caribbean , not so much. That is why they hate Putin. They love Ukraine because Ukraine is completely owned by the IMF/NATO complex. its 1990s syle economy reflect it. That is what Russia would have been.
I side with my country and its been over extending its empire which is my primary interest. . Secondly, I don't watch any propaganda with any intention of absorbing its nonsense. The time i spend on it is part of an exercise of debunking ideologies. So why would I listen to Russian propaganda?
OK, since I appreciate your knowledge on a subject and realistic approach, where does it leave us here in the US?
China's top offshore oil and gas producer CNOOC Ltd. is preparing to exit its operations in Britain, Canada and the United States, because of concerns in Beijing the assets could become subject to sanctions, industry sources told Reuters.
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the exit being prepared would take place less than a decade after state-owned CNOOC entered the three countries via a $15 billion US acquisition of Canada's Nexen, a deal that transformed the Chinese champion into a leading global producer.
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The assets, which include stakes in major fields in the North Sea, the Gulf of Mexico and large Canadian oil sand projects, produce around 220,000 barrels of oil equivalent per day (boed), Reuters calculations found.
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As it seeks to leave the West, CNOOC is looking to acquire new assets in Latin America and Africa, and also wants to prioritize the development of large, new prospects in Brazil, Guyana and Uganda, the sources said.
It appears that Ukraine sank the flagship of Russia's Black Sea Fleet.
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