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View Poll Results: Should the voting age be raised to 21?
Yes, raise the voting age to 21 87 58.00%
No, keep the voting age at 18 63 42.00%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-10-2022, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
908 posts, read 442,522 times
Reputation: 790

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker View Post
No whether they are 18 or 80.

As far as the military goes you can't expect to ask or force someone to go fight and die for the principles of which our great nation was founded while not allowing them to engage in any one of them. It's just the price that we have to pay for freedom and the right to vote for whomever best represents what an individual believes in politically.

I vote for and support the Republican Party because they best align with my political beliefs. Not only that but I detest and loathe the Democrat Party and damn near everything that they stand for. I consider myself to be a Constitutionalist, an originalist. That the Constitution is the law of the land as it was intended to be and not something that can be legislated away by activist justices on the courts. I too am against Democracy as it is nothing more than mob rule. Unfortunately somebody has to make political decisions otherwise we'd have total anarchy. But those decisions have to be made according to Constitutional Law. Many of them are not and have to be fought over in a long protracted and expensive court fight.

The biggest problem we have is the corruption in government as it is a very lucrative business. Politicians will lie, cheat, steal and prostitute themselves to the lowest common denominator for some crummy little public office. That's true for both political parties from the local level on up. Unfortunately we have a two tiered system of justice in this country. If you're a Democrat politician you can get away with anything. If you're a Republican politician you'll be tried and convicted in the court of public opinion aided and abetted by an all too willing media.

How the hell is it that Hunter Biden can get away with deliberately lying on Federal Form 4473 in order to illegally purchase a handgun which is a federal crime punishable by 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine? While his old man is out there pushing for gun control laws that will only serve to criminalize people's lawfully owned property and activities? Or Hillary Clinton weaponizing the FBI against her political opponent with false allegations about Russian collusion aided and abetted by an all too willing media.
I'd definitely support the notion of combat veterans gaining an automatic right to the franchise , but I must nonetheless humbly disagree with that of all armed forces members gaining the same .

After all if the premise of " you should have the right to vote if you have the right to die for your country " is to be accepted , then why shouldn't soldiers in general have the right to elect their officers and/or the ability to veto the decisions of the top brass during wartime ?

I mean the decisions made by their superiors are just as ( if not in a certain sense more ) likely to cause them to throw their lives away needlessly as that of politicians they cannot elect doing the same in a likewise manner .

In short if military service is to be thought of as giving one a right to the franchise on the basis of being willing to lay down one's life , then the argument for democratization of the military in general could be made as well IMHO .

As an aside I'm of the opinion that a constitutional amendment greatly curtailing the ability of government to send our troops overseas is sorely needed , but I must digress on that count for now .

Corruption is indeed a major issue that needs addressing , yet again I do not see how it can be achieved without ( among other measures ) restricting the franchise , since the current system very much makes it possible for the worst thieves/cheats/abusers of power to enter political office as long as they are skillful at wooing the populace at large .


Biden/Clinton are indeed two good recent examples of corruption in politics , yet it isn't as if Republicans are blameless what with Watergate and the Iran-Contra scandal immediately springing to mind , i.e. I don't see how one party being ( arguably ) less corrupt than the other makes the case for maintaining the party system .

FWIW I can highly recommend the book entitled " The Party System " by Hilaire Belloc and Cecil Chesterton , for anyone interested in a thorough dissection of the pitfalls of party politics , though it's relevance/context is admittedly a bit dated .
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Old 06-10-2022, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Arizona
7,511 posts, read 4,358,665 times
Reputation: 6165
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Blakeley View Post
I'd definitely support the notion of combat veterans gaining an automatic right to the franchise , but I must nonetheless humbly disagree with that of all armed forces members gaining the same .

After all if the premise of " you should have the right to vote if you have the right to die for your country " is to be accepted , then why shouldn't soldiers in general have the right to elect their officers and/or the ability to veto the decisions of the top brass during wartime ?

I mean the decisions made by their superiors are just as ( if not in a certain sense more ) likely to cause them to throw their lives away needlessly as that of politicians they cannot elect doing the same in a likewise manner .

In short if military service is to be thought of as giving one a right to the franchise on the basis of being willing to lay down one's life , then the argument for democratization of the military in general could be made as well IMHO .

As an aside I'm of the opinion that a constitutional amendment greatly curtailing the ability of government to send our troops overseas is sorely needed , but I must digress on that count for now .

Corruption is indeed a major issue that needs addressing , yet again I do not see how it can be achieved without ( among other measures ) restricting the franchise , since the current system very much makes it possible for the worst thieves/cheats/abusers of power to enter political office as long as they are skillful at wooing the populace at large .


Biden/Clinton are indeed two good recent examples of corruption in politics , yet it isn't as if Republicans are blameless what with Watergate and the Iran-Contra scandal immediately springing to mind , i.e. I don't see how one party being ( arguably ) less corrupt than the other makes the case for maintaining the party system .

FWIW I can highly recommend the book entitled " The Party System " by Hilaire Belloc and Cecil Chesterton , for anyone interested in a thorough dissection of the pitfalls of party politics , though it's relevance/context is admittedly a bit dated .
For the same reasons why employees don't get to vote for who their bosses are. Just as with any company or corporation people have to earn their way to a better position. Military officers have to attend their respective military academies or sign up for ROTC while in college.

Unless the future of the United States is being threatened by any foreign power. I don't want to see the United States get involved in any foreign wars whatsoever.

As for corruption in government I already mentioned in my earlier post #142; "Politicians will lie, cheat, steal and prostitute themselves to the lowest common denominator for some crummy little public office. That's true for both political parties from the local level on up". Even though the media is doing its best to ignore the stories the Biden's and the Clinton's are now under the microscope.

We've all seen and heard Brandon on tape bragging about withholding over a billion dollars in aid to Ukraine if they didn't fire the prosecutor that was investigating Burisma who hired his son Hunter for a $83,000 a month no show job of which he had no experience. Which earned Brandon the deserved name of "Quid Pro Quo Joe". Or Hunter Biden selling crappy paintings to unknown buyers for $500,000. Then there's the $3,500,000 that Hunter received from Elena Baturina the former Mayor of Moscow and one of the richest people in Russia. Can you imagine if that was one of Trump's children? The media would be on that like fly's in s**t.

Sure the party system is not perfect but it's the only viable system we have in electing our representatives. You have to look at each party's platform and decide for yourself which party best reflects your political beliefs and vote accordingly. I'm totally against a multi party system or voting for any particular individual. With a three party system you could end up with having a government that was elected by 34% of the population that 66% would oppose if the 66% were split evenly at 33% each. If you have 10 candidates or 10 parties running for any particular office. You could end up with a public official that won with 11% of the vote that 90% of the people would be opposed to if the other 90% were split at 10% each for the other nine candidates.

Sure there are things that I disagree with the Republicans on, but there are far more things that I disagree with the Democrats on. Not too mention how much I loathe and detest most of the Democrat politicians, people like Pelosi, Schumer, Shiff, Waters, Swalwell, John Kerry etc. AOC and members of the squad. Although I didn't and wouldn't vote for her I respect Kyrsten Sinema for not backing down in supporting the senate filibuster. I also respect people like Joe Lieberman of whom I vehemently disagree with on the issues. But believe that he is a decent honest man. I also like Tulsi Gabbard.

On the Republican side I can't stand Cheney, Kinzinger, Romney, Kasich and a handful of other RINO's. I don't trust Lindsey Graham all that much. He talks a good game but doesn't always vote accordingly. I'm a big fan of Ted Cruz, Winsome Sears, Jim Jordan, Paul Gosar, and the other members of the freedom caucus, Tim Scott, Ron DeSantis, Byron Donalds, etc. Jason Whitlock and Leo Terrell even though they're not politicians. Sure I could spend a lot more time posting the names of politicians from both party's that I like and detest. But I think that you get the idea.

Paying attention to who you're voting for during the primaries is the best way to weed out the good from the bad in any particular party. Paying close attention to their past voting records and whether they are consistent and not just pandering for votes. Don't get me wrong there are some very good and decent people in public office. People of whom I both admire and respect but it's getting harder to differentiate the good from the bad.
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Old 06-10-2022, 05:02 PM
 
3,532 posts, read 6,427,406 times
Reputation: 1648
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyHobkins View Post
Should the voting age be raised to 21? Cannot purchase alcohol, cigarettes and marijuana until 21 (depending on state), gamble at a casino, book a hotel room (state pending), go to a nightclub, pilots license, concealed weapons license, drive for rideshare, plus many more and now discussion about guns.

Its obvious, we as a society, have determined that 18-20 year old's lack the mental capacity to make correct decisions.
I don't know if anyone already mentioned this. But it is ok for an 18 year old to fight in a war that old men are sending him or her to fight and die for.
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Old 06-10-2022, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
908 posts, read 442,522 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker View Post
That is indeed the problem and why I'd never be in favor of putting any conditions other than deliberately cheating on anyone's right to vote regardless if they are illiterate or not. Or based on race color or creed. We can't start picking and choosing who shall be allowed to vote as long as they are an American citizen and of the legal age to vote. In some state's and municipalities the Democrats are now allowing the illegal invaders to vote in local elections. Knowing full well that today's school board member, town councilman, mayor or even dog catcher. May become tomorrow's state assemblyman, state senator, governor, congressman, senator or even president.

I think that the biggest problem we have is an overwhelmingly willfully biased media that takes only one side. It's just too damn easy for them to manipulate the ignorant, lazy and uninformed to their political agenda. They're nothing more than a modern day ministry of propaganda and arm of the Democrat Party.

Another issue is our public education system along with colleges and universities that start indoctrinating children at a young age. Failing to teach them the principles of which this great country was originally founded. Every time I hear the word Democracy I wan't to puke. Yet it rolls off people's tongues as if it was 2nd nature. Even from people that are supposedly well educated. Our public education system feeds at the public trough it's no wonder that they're all for big government controlling our everyday lives. Now private colleges and universities want a piece of that action and will get their greedy little hands into it if the government takes over student loans. They will now be part of the public education system and have an unlimited resource of taxpayer dollars just for the asking.

Indeed the activities of contemporary mass media are very much at the root of today's problems , which is precisely why I'd be much more sympathetic to a partial overhaul of the First Amendment's intent with regard to press freedom , as opposed to ( f.ex ) overhauling the Second Amendment .

For the record I'm not in the least in favor of establishing a government run " Disinformation Board " or what have you , I just happen to think it would be useful to consider the possibility of allowing private individuals wider latitude to sue mainstream media organs over all the atrocious lies they are in the habit of spreading .

I also concur that the current state of the public educational system is ( quite frankly ) a disgrace that would require major correction .
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Old 06-10-2022, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Habsburg Lands of Old
908 posts, read 442,522 times
Reputation: 790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker View Post
For the same reasons why employees don't get to vote for who their bosses are. Just as with any company or corporation people have to earn their way to a better position. Military officers have to attend their respective military academies or sign up for ROTC while in college.

Unless the future of the United States is being threatened by any foreign power. I don't want to see the United States get involved in any foreign wars whatsoever.

As for corruption in government I already mentioned in my earlier post #142; "Politicians will lie, cheat, steal and prostitute themselves to the lowest common denominator for some crummy little public office. That's true for both political parties from the local level on up". Even though the media is doing its best to ignore the stories the Biden's and the Clinton's are now under the microscope.

We've all seen and heard Brandon on tape bragging about withholding over a billion dollars in aid to Ukraine if they didn't fire the prosecutor that was investigating Burisma who hired his son Hunter for a $83,000 a month no show job of which he had no experience. Which earned Brandon the deserved name of "Quid Pro Quo Joe". Or Hunter Biden selling crappy paintings to unknown buyers for $500,000. Then there's the $3,500,000 that Hunter received from Elena Baturina the former Mayor of Moscow and one of the richest people in Russia. Can you imagine if that was one of Trump's children? The media would be on that like fly's in s**t.

Sure the party system is not perfect but it's the only viable system we have in electing our representatives. You have to look at each party's platform and decide for yourself which party best reflects your political beliefs and vote accordingly. I'm totally against a multi party system or voting for any particular individual. With a three party system you could end up with having a government that was elected by 34% of the population that 66% would oppose if the 66% were split evenly at 33% each. If you have 10 candidates or 10 parties running for any particular office. You could end up with a public official that won with 11% of the vote that 90% of the people would be opposed to if the other 90% were split at 10% each for the other nine candidates.

Sure there are things that I disagree with the Republicans on, but there are far more things that I disagree with the Democrats on. Not too mention how much I loathe and detest most of the Democrat politicians, people like Pelosi, Schumer, Shiff, Waters, Swalwell, John Kerry etc. AOC and members of the squad. Although I didn't and wouldn't vote for her I respect Kyrsten Sinema for not backing down in supporting the senate filibuster. I also respect people like Joe Lieberman of whom I vehemently disagree with on the issues. But believe that he is a decent honest man. I also like Tulsi Gabbard.

On the Republican side I can't stand Cheney, Kinzinger, Romney, Kasich and a handful of other RINO's. I don't trust Lindsey Graham all that much. He talks a good game but doesn't always vote accordingly. I'm a big fan of Ted Cruz, Winsome Sears, Jim Jordan, Paul Gosar, and the other members of the freedom caucus, Tim Scott, Ron DeSantis, Byron Donalds, etc. Jason Whitlock and Leo Terrell even though they're not politicians. Sure I could spend a lot more time posting the names of politicians from both party's that I like and detest. But I think that you get the idea.

Paying attention to who you're voting for during the primaries is the best way to weed out the good from the bad in any particular party. Paying close attention to their past voting records and whether they are consistent and not just pandering for votes. Don't get me wrong there are some very good and decent people in public office. People of whom I both admire and respect but it's getting harder to differentiate the good from the bad.

It's just that I find the logic employed in making the argument of all armed services members should have the right to vote simply because they are willing to lay down their lives , conducive to making the argument for democratizing the military as such .

That said I could definitely live with the fact of all soldiers having the right to vote as long as the franchise were to be restricted in other ways , since after all one does have to meet certain very much sensible criteria to become a member of the military , as opposed to the current criteria we now have for voting in elections .

I don't see how requiring all political candidates to be independent/non party affiliated would unleash the door to election results being completely shot across the board in the way you've described , though perhaps I'm missing an important part of your argument that I'll stand corrected on if you care to elaborate .

FWIW I very much consider those laughingstock political party coalitions that are so common in certain parts of Europe to be extremely disagreeable as well , which is part of the reason as to why I favor the restoration of constitutionally limited monarchy throughout Europe , though that is neither here nor there since the USA has it's own formerly constitutional republican form of government that would suit it more than adequately were it to be restored .

I'm not one to try and convince anyone of refraining from voting for either or any party , I'm merely of the position that political parties would be best left out of the equation of government in the United States in the vein of George Washington .

In a nod to the ( I assume ) faction within the Republican party that you support , I'd like to state that I very much appreciated the ( at least alleged ) statement Trump made with regard to the media being the enemy of the people .

Making such a claim takes immense courage in the climate that exists in practically all developed English speaking countries , which is more than I can say for any other politician I'm aware of .
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Old 06-10-2022, 06:11 PM
 
8,772 posts, read 5,065,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haksel257 View Post
I don't mean this as a snarky anti-elder comeback, but if we do this, then shall we do this for the senile as well?

I say nah. Don't forget you can be sent to war at that age. Besides, how many people really vote at 18-21? Enough to make a difference? Perhaps.
But the senile can be president?
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Old 08-23-2022, 03:22 AM
 
3,560 posts, read 1,656,346 times
Reputation: 6116
You could lower the voting age to 10 and it really wouldnt matter. Few under 30 seem to have lot interest. Many dont get any great interest until they start a family. Young that do vote probably have thought things out more than many older lemming voters that only know what they hear on AM radio and internet echo chambers.



Now where you could make a difference ban anybody over 65 from running for office. Jaded senile richer-than-God types shouldnt be in charge in any of the three branches of govt. Probably nobody over 65 should be allowed to vote either. If you have a minimum age, then you need a maximum age.
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Old 08-23-2022, 03:37 AM
 
1,603 posts, read 868,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Du Ma View Post
and military joining age should be raise to 21

Or, people who join the military get to immediately vote...WITH MILITARY ID. Solved!
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Old 08-23-2022, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,641 posts, read 18,249,084 times
Reputation: 34520
Whatever the answer, the age to do various things need to be consistent. It's insane that you can join the military at 18, but not buy cigarettes or drink until 21 in many places.
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Old 08-23-2022, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Wilkes-Barre, PA
2,014 posts, read 3,900,271 times
Reputation: 1725
If you're going to raise the age to 21 then all adulthood responsibilities should be pushed back. I never thought it was fair when I was that age that you could be arrested or drafted into the military among other "Penalties" for being an adult but many of the perks where withheld until you were 21.
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