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Except for a few isolated oddballs like Sayyid Qutb, they never cared what we do in our country. Most of them still don't. ETA: You know, the more I think about this, the more obvious a case of projection it is. We're the ones insisting on bringing the benefits of our way of life to their benighted selves, by force if necessary. But we imagine ourselves being coerced to follow their cultural mores when the truth is precisely the other way around. As it says in the Bible someplace, "the guilty flee when no man pursueth."
Kuwait is not a nuisance to Israel. I never said we want to kill all Arabs.
Before 1948 we rarely had enemies in the Middle East. In fact, in 1948 Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Libya were all sound U.S. allies. By 1980, as a result of the destablization caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict, all of them had fallen to Islamists or radical socialists.
The number of allies we'd instantly gain by dumping Israel overboard is an absolutely conclusive reason to get on with the dumping.
Considering i'm jewish,i'm obviously against that.Now would you dump a friend if another one of your friends didn't like them? If you have a backbone, the answer is no.It would be very easy for the U.S. to dump Israel but it would be much harder for the U.S to attack a united muslim middle east!We should be kissing Israel's a$$ for existing.Without Israel there would eventually be a possibility of control of oil by one united country as well as a new version of the nazi's.The only thing stopping that is Israel,and monetary greed of certain arab countries, plus the different sects of the muslim religion who can't see eye to eye. I do agree though that we do PUSH our ideal on other countries and as long as it doesn't involve us or our allies sometimes we need to simply stay out of it.When Pakistan and India were on the verge of war,why would we get involved? The foreign aid that we have provided to countries in the last 8 years would have gotten us totally off oil dependency,we would have had universal healthcare and considering the new technology (hydro,solar,wind) there would have been many more jobs for these fields plus new auto plants making cars with newer power sources.
Considering i'm jewish,i'm obviously against that.
Why would that be obvious? Are you an American or not?
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Now would you dump a friend if another one of your friends didn't like them? If you have a backbone, the answer is no.It would be very easy for the U.S. to dump Israel but it would be much harder for the U.S to attack a united muslim middle east!
What the hell are you talking about? In the first place, if the "Muslim Middle East" had the wherewithal to get together, they would've done it with or without the little strip of land Israel inhabits. Egypt and Syria tried it once, and even they only lasted 3 years before their 'divorce'. Second, why in the hell would the U.S. WANT to "attack a united muslim middle east"? What would we get out of it? We didn't have constant problems in the Middle East before 1948. Third, Israel has been one of the few things driving the Muslim world together. If that is a threat, Israel is one of the catalysts for the threat, which makes a point for me, not a point for you.
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Without Israel there would eventually be a possibility of control of oil by one united country as well as a new version of the nazi's.The only thing stopping that is Israel,and monetary greed of certain arab countries, plus the different sects of the muslim religion who can't see eye to eye.
Again, Israel's existence pushes its enemies in the direction of unity, not division, just like a foreign army in New York harbor would push Democrats and Republicans in the direction of unity. And again, if those supposedly bad middle eastern guys were going to unite, they would've done it by now. As far as Arab 'Nazis', Zionist aggression is what has been stoking extremism in the region since 1917. Without Israel, the Arab and Muslim world would almost certainly have developed in a much more liberal direction.
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I do agree though that we do PUSH our ideal on other countries and as long as it doesn't involve us or our allies sometimes we need to simply stay out of it.
I agree. But we have no defense treaty with Israel, therefore they are not technically an ally, therefore by this principle we should stay out of it. True enough.
Why would that be obvious? Are you an American or not?
What the hell are you talking about? In the first place, if the "Muslim Middle East" had the wherewithal to get together, they would've done it with or without the little strip of land Israel inhabits. Egypt and Syria tried it once, and even they only lasted 3 years before their 'divorce'. Second, why in the hell would the U.S. WANT to "attack a united muslim middle east"? What would we get out of it? We didn't have constant problems in the Middle East before 1948. Third, Israel has been one of the few things driving the Muslim world together. If that is a threat, Israel is one of the catalysts for the threat, which makes a point for me, not a point for you.
Again, Israel's existence pushes its enemies in the direction of unity, not division, just like a foreign army in New York harbor would push Democrats and Republicans in the direction of unity. And again, if those supposedly bad middle eastern guys were going to unite, they would've done it by now. As far as Arab 'Nazis', Zionist aggression is what has been stoking extremism in the region since 1917. Without Israel, the Arab and Muslim world would almost certainly have developed in a much more liberal direction.
I agree. But we have no defense treaty with Israel, therefore they are not technically an ally, therefore by this principle we should stay out of it. True enough.
Just like Italians have a soft spot for Italy so do jewish people for Israel.I also still have family there.As far as getting together,the muslim countries don't just like the african tribes don't.They might have a common enemy (Israel) but they do have lots of difference.Evidence in this can be found in Iraq considering the 3 sects can't stand each other.As far as the U.S. attacking, I was referring to if war was declared(hypothetical).Greed and differences between old school and modern day beliefs of muslims varies quite a bit.From country to country you can notice it in the way the women dress.A united muslim world could significantly control the price of oil(if Israel didn't exist).As far as defense treaties we have an unspoken bond nowadays but with a friendship like that of Great Britain.That being said we have been offered a hand of friendship by alot of middle eastern countries and maybe we need to sit down and negotiate those friendships which would obviously include trade.As much as I hate Iran's leader, we still could sit down with him to hear what he says.Worst case scenario we walk out and turn down his requests.
Just like Italians have a soft spot for Italy so do jewish people for Israel.I also still have family there.
No kidding, but plenty of Italian-Americans fought on the Italian front in WW2 without overmuch hand-wringing. Can you envision doing the same?
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As far as getting together,the muslim countries don't just like the african tribes don't.They might have a common enemy (Israel) but they do have lots of difference.Evidence in this can be found in Iraq considering the 3 sects can't stand each other.As far as the U.S. attacking, I was referring to if war was declared(hypothetical).Greed and differences between old school and modern day beliefs of muslims varies quite a bit.From country to country you can notice it in the way the women dress.
This is all 100% correct, but it proves why the idea of a united Muslim middle east is a phantom threat.
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A united muslim world could significantly control the price of oil(if Israel didn't exist).
Doubtful, since they have to sell their oil as much as we have to buy it. They can't drink it. If they got unreasonable enough we could swallow our pride and get our oil from Russia or Venezuela, or start drilling here again. But they are not going to unite anyway, and whether they do or not has zero to do with Israel.
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As far as defense treaties we have an unspoken bond nowadays but with a friendship like that of Great Britain.That being said we have been offered a hand of friendship by alot of middle eastern countries and maybe we need to sit down and negotiate those friendships which would obviously include trade.As much as I hate Iran's leader, we still could sit down with him to hear what he says.Worst case scenario we walk out and turn down his requests.
I agree with almost all this. But we are tied to Great Britain by actual treaty and not by mere sympathy. Jefferson recommended a policy of "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." You and I agree on the first part of that. Can I get you to go along with the second?
No kidding, but plenty of Italian-Americans fought on the Italian front in WW2 without overmuch hand-wringing. Can you envision doing the same?
This is all 100% correct, but it proves why the idea of a united Muslim middle east is a phantom threat.
Doubtful, since they have to sell their oil as much as we have to buy it. They can't drink it. If they got unreasonable enough we could swallow our pride and get our oil from Russia or Venezuela, or start drilling here again. But they are not going to unite anyway, and whether they do or not has zero to do with Israel.
I agree with almost all this. But we are tied to Great Britain by actual treaty and not by mere sympathy. Jefferson recommended a policy of "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." You and I agree on the first part of that. Can I get you to go along with the second?
Fighting against Israel-thankfully this would never happen.
If Israel didn't exist and the middle eastern oil was controlled by one then the Venezuelan oil would be much higher in price because the demand would be much higher.Russia has a friendship with Iran so we wouldn't get oil from them and there are enough countries including the far east that have a very high demand for oil so they don't necessarily need us, we just boost the demand.If we used our own it wouldn't last more then a couple of years at most.
I do agree with the treaty but you also have to understand that we have trained with Israel (especially the Air Force) by training them and vice versa.Before the persian gulf war they were recognized as the best Air Force in the world.I know this from being a member of the US Air Force in the 90's.
Do you remember the day the towers were hit with the arab women yelping in the streets and the american flag being burned? Don't be delusional! We are DEFINITELY hated by alot of countries and individuals across the world.I have travelled all over and can confirm this. There are places that are jealous but others who do flat out hate our ideals.
Delusional? I don't think so...did you read what I said. I said there are those that hate us and those that love us but, the majority are some where in the middle and tend to criticize us more than anything. Seeing Arab women yelping in the streets and people burning the american flag on television, doesn't mean they represent all the other countries in the world or even a lot of them. Those particular people (whom ever they were) obviously are among those who hated us then and may still do. As I said there are those that hate us and there have been those and always will be. Remember there have also been protests in this country by Americans who burned the American flag but, they didn't represent all Americans when they did it, did they. If that's an indication that a lot of countries hate America then tell me, where else in the world that day did you see people cheering (yelping) and burning the American flag?....there are 6 continents that people live on. There were certainly some people in the world that were celebrating that day and there were also those that were greiving along with some of us but, most were a lot less concerned either way (especially when many of them have their own problems to deal with). Thinking that most or all of the rest of the world hates us, is really blowing things out of proportion.....thinking the majority are some where in the middle and mostly just very critical of us, is more like reality.
Delusional? I don't think so...did you read what I said. I said there are those that hate us and those that love us but, the majority are some where in the middle and tend to criticize us more than anything. Seeing Arab women yelping in the streets and people burning the american flag on television, doesn't mean they represent all the other countries in the world or even a lot of them. Those particular people (whom ever they were) obviously are among those who hated us then and may still do. As I said there are those that hate us and there have been those and always will be. Remember there have also been protests in this country by Americans who burned the American flag but, they didn't represent all Americans when they did it, did they. If that's an indication that a lot of countries hate America then tell me, where else in the world that day did you see people cheering (yelping) and burning the American flag?....there are 6 continents that people live on. There were certainly some people in the world that were celebrating that day and there were also those that were greiving along with some of us but, most were a lot less concerned either way (especially when many of them have their own problems to deal with). Thinking that most or all of the rest of the world hates us, is really blowing things out of proportion.....thinking the majority are some where in the middle and mostly just very critical of us, is more like reality.
Obviously everyone has enemies. We just have many more then most.We get involved in too many outside matters and because of this we are viewed as the old phrase "THE WORLDS POLICEMAN". If you polled the world you'd realize we are flat out HATED by the majority of the countries in the world. I'm not saying 90-100% of the countries but over 50% would be a fair estimate.Burning the flag is just being dramatic but in general most of the middle east does actually hate us.In the 90's while in the Air Force I got to travel to about 40 different countries.If you add the other countries that I have visited in my life it's probably somewhere near 70. There are many that are just jealous but my statement does come from experience and seeing first hand.
If Israel didn't exist and the middle eastern oil was controlled by one then the Venezuelan oil would be much higher in price because the demand would be much higher.
Why would demand be higher?
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Russia has a friendship with Iran so we wouldn't get oil from them
You're assuming we have reasons, other than our perpetual babysitting of Israel, to be enemies of Iran. I don't see any such reasons.
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