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And I resent the fact that the left is trying to demonize those that are using common sense and are against this stupid idea. I resent the fact that you all say we're for special interest groups, when in fact we're just against the world's largest special interest group (the US government)
That's not what anyone said. We're telling you that you're being lied to and manipulated by very powerful people who are working in the background without disclosing who they are and what their motives are.
You are certainly free to think it's a stupid idea. We'd just like it if you thought it was a stupid idea because you disagree with things that are actually being put in the bill, and not made up lies designed to rile you up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford
This is a STUPID idea, and a LOT of Americans are against this. We don't give a damn about pharma. We don't give a damn about insurance company profits. We only give a damn about the quality of our health care and the fact that we don't want our health decisions being made by bureaucrats.
And this is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you don't seem to get that your health care decisions are being made by bureaucrats RIGHT NOW. How can you rail against something you imagine is in the new bill, and not acknowledge that it's a fact you're already dealing with under your current health care plan?
There is no such thing as unlimited health care coverage under any policy. Some limit how many times they'll cover you for doctor's visits each year. They all limit the lifetime max they'll pay out for your care. You can be denied coverage because some bureaucrat decides the course of treatment your doctor recommends is "experimental" or "not cost effective."
This is the stuff that is happening every single day. And yet you argue to keep the status quo because you don't want what you've already got. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford
Whether you like it or not, many, many, many Americans are using their heads and voting against this crap. We're voicing our displeasure for this plan and dammit we're allowed to do that. It's sad and pathetic that the left is trying to silence the voice of the American people by trying to demonize them and make up lies about our reasoning for our feelings.
Pathetic.
Nobody has ever said you aren't "allowed" to voice your displeasure. We just happen to think it's sad and pathetic that you can't see through the snow job you're being given by people with an agenda that is not in your best interest, but in theirs. We think what's pathetic is that so far not one single person who opposes this legislation has come up with a TRUTHFUL thing to object to in the bill(s). Every scrap that's been "demonized" about this legislation has been a lie, that an intelligent reading of the actual language in the bill disproves.
There are no "death panels".
Doctors are not going to counsel the elderly to end their lives for profit.
Families are not going to be forced into government home visits and be told how to raise their children.
These are all lies.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
It's frustrating to constantly have to argue against things that aren't even in the bill(s), let alone under consideration. I'm more than happy to debate the actual content, but no one seems to want to do that. And that's because the mouthpieces running this show on the Right (media, legislators, wannabes) are all lying to you in order to work you into a frenzy.
We get that you, personally aren't part of a special interest group. We get that many, if not most of the ordinary citizens who are showing up to protest at the town halls are not part of any special interest groups.
What you aren't letting sink in, is that the frenzy that you and all the other ordinary American citizens have been worked up into, has been cleverly orchestratedby these special interest groups, masquerading as "grass roots organizations". That's not what they are. That's not who they are. They have an agenda that is contrary to your best interest, but you're so dead set on being against "the Left" that you refuse to believe it when the evidence is right before your eyes.
President Obama wants to force private insurance carriers to cover any applicant regardless of pre-existing conditions.
President Obama wants to prevent private insurance carriers from dumping you when they decide that covering you is cutting too much into their profit margin.
President Obama wants to prevent insurance carriers from jacking up your premiums to exorbitant rates as a thinly veiled effort to get you to drop your coverage with them.
A Republican legislator introduced language that's almost identical to currently existing language in the Medicare bill, that encourages doctors to discuss end of life options, and reimburse for that visit under this plan.
And yet, all we hear is a bunch of made up lies about forced home visits, eugenics, bureaucrats and death panels.
Or morelikel;y the liberal socialist use people greed to make them think that it's something for nothing. In the ned its allo a governamnt power play to control more and more. Evenually there will only be the poor and the leadership.They always play to the mob that think they should be the elite but realy are like the brownshirts in germany.
We get that you, personally aren't part of a special interest group. We get that many, if not most of the ordinary citizens who are showing up to protest at the town halls are not part of any special interest groups.
What you aren't letting sink in, is that the frenzy that you and all the other ordinary American citizens have been worked up into, has been cleverly orchestratedby these special interest groups, masquerading as "grass roots organizations". That's not what they are. That's not who they are. They have an agenda that is contrary to your best interest, but you're so dead set on being against "the Left" that you refuse to believe it when the evidence is right before your eyes.
I think a lot of us, if not the majority of folks in this country, are getting tired of hearing (and being insulted) that we can't think for ourselves, that we lack critical thinking skills.
I think a lot of the lies come from the health care supporters, who have failed to make an adequate case for the proposals. Stuff like preventive care have clearly been identified by CBO as an attribute that increases overall health care cost, not save money. Yet, the supporters keep mindlessly chanting the mantra that nobody but the rich will absorb more cost.
Many of us don't believe this at all, and think the supporters haven't thought out their proposal, and the business case in support of the proposal. Frankly, from my point of view this is the "nose of the camel" towards further government nanny state stuff, such as proposing "junk food tax" and funding/encouraging abortions for fetuses that are identified as significantly defective during pregnancy screening.
Can you dispute the fact that it will cause the per-capita expenditure for health-care to increase, as well as increase taxes?
No. The per-capita expenditure for healthcare will increase, as will some taxes.
And if President Obama were proposing those cost increases without covering them with cost cutting and tax code changes, just like Bush did with his 400 billion dollar Medicare drug plan that added directly to the deficit because there was not one single provision in that bill to cover that 400 billion dollars, I'd be opposed to it.
And although I'm not one of the people who would be affected by the proposed tax changes, since our family income does not exceed $250,000, I'd still be willing to shoulder the burden of a tax increase in order to see this country come into the 21st century and start taking care of its citizens.
However, I understand being opposed to tax increases. It is a legitimate reason to be against this bill. It's one of those issues that reasonable people can disagree on. So if that's the only reason you're opposed to it, then fight on! Call your representatives and demand that they start working with their colleagues to find ways to pay for this bill that won't increase taxes. Tell them to stop stonewalling and get to work, doing what you elected them to do -- represent your viewpoints in Washington.
That's not what anyone said. We're telling you that you're being lied to and manipulated by very powerful people who are working in the background without disclosing who they are and what their motives are.
You are certainly free to think it's a stupid idea. We'd just like it if you thought it was a stupid idea because you disagree with things that are actually being put in the bill, and not made up lies designed to rile you up. And this is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you don't seem to get that your health care decisions are being made by bureaucrats RIGHT NOW. How can you rail against something you imagine is in the new bill, and not acknowledge that it's a fact you're already dealing with under your current health care plan?
There is no such thing as unlimited health care coverage under any policy. Some limit how many times they'll cover you for doctor's visits each year. They all limit the lifetime max they'll pay out for your care. You can be denied coverage because some bureaucrat decides the course of treatment your doctor recommends is "experimental" or "not cost effective."
This is the stuff that is happening every single day. And yet you argue to keep the status quo because you don't want what you've already got. It doesn't make a lick of sense. Nobody has ever said you aren't "allowed" to voice your displeasure. We just happen to think it's sad and pathetic that you can't see through the snow job you're being given by people with an agenda that is not in your best interest, but in theirs. We think what's pathetic is that so far not one single person who opposes this legislation has come up with a TRUTHFUL thing to object to in the bill(s). Every scrap that's been "demonized" about this legislation has been a lie, that an intelligent reading of the actual language in the bill disproves.
There are no "death panels".
Doctors are not going to counsel the elderly to end their lives for profit.
Families are not going to be forced into government home visits and be told how to raise their children.
These are all lies.
LIES, LIES, LIES.
It's frustrating to constantly have to argue against things that aren't even in the bill(s), let alone under consideration. I'm more than happy to debate the actual content, but no one seems to want to do that. And that's because the mouthpieces running this show on the Right (media, legislators, wannabes) are all lying to you in order to work you into a frenzy.
We get that you, personally aren't part of a special interest group. We get that many, if not most of the ordinary citizens who are showing up to protest at the town halls are not part of any special interest groups.
What you aren't letting sink in, is that the frenzy that you and all the other ordinary American citizens have been worked up into, has been cleverly orchestratedby these special interest groups, masquerading as "grass roots organizations". That's not what they are. That's not who they are. They have an agenda that is contrary to your best interest, but you're so dead set on being against "the Left" that you refuse to believe it when the evidence is right before your eyes.
President Obama wants to force private insurance carriers to cover any applicant regardless of pre-existing conditions.
President Obama wants to prevent private insurance carriers from dumping you when they decide that covering you is cutting too much into their profit margin.
President Obama wants to prevent insurance carriers from jacking up your premiums to exorbitant rates as a thinly veiled effort to get you to drop your coverage with them.
A Republican legislator introduced language that's almost identical to currently existing language in the Medicare bill, that encourages doctors to discuss end of life options, and reimburse for that visit under this plan.
And yet, all we hear is a bunch of made up lies about forced home visits, eugenics, bureaucrats and death panels.
It's ridiculous!
I love how you're so "enlightened". How it's so simple to understand.
We feel that the government is one doing the lying. Don't sit on your high and might horse, because you have no horse. You obviously will believe anything you're told by your precious administration.
We're smart enough to think for ourselves, thank you. There's a very serious complex that the left has, thinking that they're the only ones "brilliant" enough to understand what's going on.
However, all this Obama worship, and the COMPLETE inability to call him out on ANYTHING he's done or ANY of his ideas, wreaks of idol worship. It's a sick trend that so many people are completely unable to look past anything he says.
How, in the last six months, did we all of a sudden find ourselves in a health care CRISIS. It's always needed a bit of tweaking, but all of a sudden, as soon as Obama took office it became a crisis.
THERE IS NO HEALTH CARE CRISIS, AND WE RESENT BUREAUCRATS TELLING US THERE IS JUST TO GET A STUPID BILL PASSED THAT SUPPORTS THEIR INTERESTS.
And we also resent those stupid enough to buy into everything they say, just because you want a referendum against Bush.
Keep calling us ignorant. Keep telling us we have no idea what we're talking about. That ivory tower is starting to crumble and people are starting to realize this administration is a sham.
I think a lot of us, if not the majority of folks in this country, are getting tired of hearing (and being insulted) that we can't think for ourselves, that we lack critical thinking skills.
Do you believe the bill contains death panels? Do you believe the government is going to force their way into your home and tell you how to raise your children? Do you believe any of the debunked lies that legislators, talk show hosts and former beauty queens have been feeding the drooling public?
If the answer to all of the above is 'no', then you're not one of the people we reform supporters are talking about. But we can see for ourselves, from posts on this forum, from blogs across the internet and from the asinine questions that are being asked at town halls, that there is a vast majority of people out there who clearly are not thinking for themselves. It's obvious because they parrot the talking points that have been fed to them, without verifying for themselves that what they're hearing are flat out falsehoods.
Instead of patting those who have bought into the lies on the back, why not hold your side to the fire and demand that they put forth reasonable arguments instead of lies? Such as the below. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA
Frankly, from my point of view this is the "nose of the camel" towards further government nanny state stuff, such as proposing "junk food tax"
That's a fair concern. I disagree, but I wouldn't criticize you for fearing "the slippery slope". Our side has had the very same problem with many of the proposals and legislation that came out of the Bush administration, for instance, the Patriot Act. I think we had (and have) a legitimate right to be concerned that many things in it can, have, and will lead to further curtailing of our fundamental rights. Now, if you want to have a conversation about the potential for this proposal being merely a stepping stone to further legislation you won't like, I'm happy to have that conversation. This, on the other hand. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA
and funding/encouraging abortions for fetuses that are identified as significantly defective during pregnancy screening.
I think is a little out there and I'm not sure where you get the idea that anyone on the left is or would be advocating that. From my experience, the left is all about choice, and everyone I know would be outraged at the idea that our government would have any part in encouraging abortion for any reason whatsoever, including the viability of the fetus. I have some friends who learned while they were pregnant that their child had atypical hydranencephaly, a rare condition in which the brain's cerebral hemispheres are absent and replaced by sacs filled with cerebrospinal fluid. They knew their child would never survive, but they chose to see their son born and give him a proper welcome, then burial when necessary. He lived only 5 hours, taking his last breath in his father's arms. We comforted him and consoled him and encouraged him throughout it all, never once casting judgment on the very painful choice they were making to have their son. If I had a government that would so much as breathe a single word about whether or not that choice should be theirs, and theirs alone, I would be standing right beside you, protesting with the loudest voice you can possibly imagine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA
(BTW - these are my own thoughts)
Of that I have no doubt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford
However, all this Obama worship, and the COMPLETE inability to call him out on ANYTHING he's done or ANY of his ideas, wreaks of idol worship. It's a sick trend that so many people are completely unable to look past anything he says.
Unlike NewToCA and GOPATTA2D, I don't find your rantings have any realistic merit. So far, all I've seen you do is throw out falsehoods and accusations.
For the record, I'm more than very pissed off that President Obama said he'd repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but has done flickall to actually make that happen. When's he gonna do it, after we're out of Afghanistan and Iraq and are no longer in desperate need for Arabic translators?
And speaking of Iraq, he promised he'd get us out, and we're still there, with no specific end date in sight. You think I'm happy about that?
So stop with your blanket allegations and over-the-top wailing about those of us who support President Obama. It's entirely possible to support him and not "worship" him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford
How, in the last six months, did we all of a sudden find ourselves in a health care CRISIS. It's always needed a bit of tweaking, but all of a sudden, as soon as Obama took office it became a crisis.
THERE IS NO HEALTH CARE CRISIS, AND WE RESENT BUREAUCRATS TELLING US THERE IS JUST TO GET A STUPID BILL PASSED THAT SUPPORTS THEIR INTERESTS.
See, this is why I can't take you seriously. Nobody who's been paying attention thinks that health care only became a crisis in the past 6 months. Everyone who watched Barack Obama's campaign since the spring of 2007 has heard him talk about the need for health care reform. Everyone who's been paying attention to the real world, including those on the Right, knows that our current health care system is broken. According to a New York Times/CBS News poll, "85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt."
I won't address the rest of your post, because it's just more ranting and I've already covered that.
The American people who have the freedom of speech are behind it.
We dont like being lied to and we do not want the government running our health care.
Especially this congress who has proven time and again to be total failures.
You cannot trust this majority people, they are lying and sneaky pieces of crap who wont to control you and your life.
Just say NOto any government run health care.
However, I understand being opposed to tax increases. It is a legitimate reason to be against this bill. It's one of those issues that reasonable people can disagree on.
That is exactly one of the reasons the American people are up in arms about these bills - the cost.
The other is the notion that the government can fix anything - it is exactly the opposite - when the fed gets involved, prices skyrocket, quality plummets and satisfaction nears zero.
There are quite a few things wrong with our current HC system - none of which justifies intrusion by the federal government.
We have heard it from their own mouths - the only way to single payer is through a public option - a lie that the people can clearly discern.
Obama has advocated for an "independent panel" that addresses end of life issues - some may call it a death panel. Why did they remove the language from the bill?
Quote:
According to a New York Times/CBS News poll, "85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt."
You are way, way behind the news. That is very old news - a lot has happened in the last month. Virtually EVERY poll disapproves of obamacare and the way obama and the dems/libs are handling the issue.
Quote:
Everyone who watched Barack Obama's campaign since the spring of 2007 has heard him talk about the need for health care reform.
He has indeed and even before that. That's how we know what his real intentions are, based on his very own words in 2003 and 2007. Single payer is the ultimate goal - but of course he can't admit that, can he?
He also talked about those big bad hospitals and big Pharma - look at the deals he is trying to cut with them.
Quote:
Everyone who's been paying attention to the real world, including those on the Right, knows that our current health care system is broken.
Sorry, we have the best HC in the world. The brightest minds are in this country, advancing technology every day to the betterment of the whole nation. There are some problems that can be fixed without burdening the system with a massive government expansion into 1/6th of our economy.
Do you believe the bill contains death panels? Do you believe the government is going to force their way into your home and tell you how to raise your children? Do you believe any of the debunked lies that legislators, talk show hosts and former beauty queens have been feeding the drooling public?
If the answer to all of the above is 'no', then you're not one of the people we reform supporters are talking about. But we can see for ourselves, from posts on this forum, from blogs across the internet and from the asinine questions that are being asked at town halls, that there is a vast majority of people out there who clearly are not thinking for themselves. It's obvious because they parrot the talking points that have been fed to them, without verifying for themselves that what they're hearing are flat out falsehoods.
Instead of patting those who have bought into the lies on the back, why not hold your side to the fire and demand that they put forth reasonable arguments instead of lies? Such as the below. . . That's a fair concern. I disagree, but I wouldn't criticize you for fearing "the slippery slope". Our side has had the very same problem with many of the proposals and legislation that came out of the Bush administration, for instance, the Patriot Act. I think we had (and have) a legitimate right to be concerned that many things in it can, have, and will lead to further curtailing of our fundamental rights. Now, if you want to have a conversation about the potential for this proposal being merely a stepping stone to further legislation you won't like, I'm happy to have that conversation. This, on the other hand. . . I think is a little out there and I'm not sure where you get the idea that anyone on the left is or would be advocating that. From my experience, the left is all about choice, and everyone I know would be outraged at the idea that our government would have any part in encouraging abortion for any reason whatsoever, including the viability of the fetus.
Over the long term, the cost of the program would result in policy choice concerning care. Though I don't agree with how Palin stated the case, I do believe that there would be economic consideration in the cost and benefit of providing medical care.
Within this context, handicapped kids are really expensive, and would chew up a lot of the cost of health care. I easily can see the care of those folks being lessened over time, just as it already is in the multiple Medicaid programs across the country today. Now, folks covered by Medicaid can still get better care if they have parents who can still include them in their coverage, but if they can't premature life termination isn't always avoided.
This is done in multiple ways, without being a specific policy statement. Items such as reduced physicals, both in extent and frequency, are commonly done against the handicapped in government run programs today. Also, eye exams and dental care have been completely eliminated in many Medicaid programs.
Seen any policy statements to this effect, or any national outrage?
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