Poor Black thug culture is destroying the Black Race! (lawyer, soldiers, March)

[wethrowpie]

Originally Posted by love.doll

wethrowpie...did you just join CD to rant & rave against blacks?

I'm pretty far from 'ranting and raving against blacks' but then your viewpoint of my posts are apparently rather skewed with your status updates of things like:

i'm a gangster - 11-21-2009 09:41 PM
and
moving to detroit for love - 11-01-2009 11:44 PM

wouldn't you agree, 'gangster'?

It continues to amaze me that presenting factual arguments generates such hatred from the more liberal crowd. You can't fix problems without acknowledging they exist.

[love.doll]

Originally Posted by wethrowpie

I'm pretty far from 'ranting and raving against blacks' but then your viewpoint of my posts are apparently rather skewed with your status updates of things like:

i'm a gangster - 11-21-2009 09:41 PM
and
moving to detroit for love - 11-01-2009 11:44 PM

wouldn't you agree, 'gangster'?

It continues to amaze me that presenting factual arguments generates such hatred from the more liberal crowd. You can't fix problems without acknowledging they exist.

lmao my status updates?
stop reaching because you have no idea what those updates actually mean so dont even try

[wethrowpie]

Originally Posted by love.doll

lmao my status updates?
stop reaching because you have no idea what those updates actually mean so dont even try

Here's 'reaching' for you. You're black and took offense at me participating in a thread started BY a black man and listing off problems as I see them. You however, offered no assessments or solutions of your own other than attacking me.

I think that's pretty much on point.

[diva360]

I am going to try to respond to these points while being just as respectful as I can be, but my patience is being tried. I am really not sure why wethrowpie is part of this conversation, but I will move forward under the perhaps foolish assumption that he wants to talk to people here.

[quote]

Originally Posted by wethrowpie

Meth isn't the 'crack of the south' people make it out to be. It's an over emphasized problem by a tremendous degree. I do actually live in the south, guess what the crack of the south is? It's crack. I can't speak to regional teen pregnancy rates because I haven't looked into those numbers. I do know that in racial groupings whites have roughly 1/3rd the pregnancy rates of black teens. Nationally high school graduation rates are only ~ 70%, but that number drops to ~20% in some cities like detroit. I imagine the pure drop out rate widely reflects nearly these kinds of figures.

Like you, I have also lived in the South, and I am not from NJ, as you seem to have gathered from my current situation. That is fine--I can see why someone might think that. In fact, I am from rural MN originally, but I have lived in the Upper Midwest in two different areas, Texas, and now the NE.

Now that I have established that, I will move on to what I believe to be the heart of what you are saying, noting that you are hard to argue with because you keep changing the subject, it seems, when it seems convenient to you.

Back to the matter at hand. It seems to me that what you call "black thug culture" really isn't very much different from "white thug culture," and that thug culture has been fueled by a variety of things historically. At one point in time, that white thug culture was fueled by racially motivated violence, it seems to me. Presently and sadly, it seems to be motivated by meth addiction. I am not sure what your data is that supports your claim about how meth addiction is an "overemphasized problem," but these guys don't seem to think so. If we need to have an argument about this organization's credibility, then that is a separate issue:

meth

I believe many of you are somehow reading my mention of dress and not understanding it. Regardless of what minor differences you see in those places, you notice professionals, people with taste, and those who present themselves well. I don't know what fantasy land you folks are living in if you expect me to believe otherwise. These are universal norms in American society.

I understand full well what you are saying. You disapprove of urban black males who wear low-slung jeans, hoodies, bandanas, and, possibly, baseball caps. You may well disapprove of how I dress because it violates a different set of rules. I'm a young professional, and I tend to mix things like motorcycle boots, patterned tights, Twiggy-inspired sixties retro/vintage dresses, rocker leather jackets, and iconic beat poetry fashion items like berets. Prince, if he had fancied me, may have described me in song as the kind of girl who wore a raspberry beret, the kind that you find in a second-hand store.

This is inside baseball, but the point is that there are numerous subcultures in the U.S., and it is hard for me to imagine that you know about them given the rigidity that has been expressed in some postings that have appeared here. Goth kids, for example, have their own systems of signification in what they wear--not unlike black kids in urban settings. Having dyed black hair, sporting multiple eyebrow piercings, wearing pancake makeup and red lipstick, and donning concert t-shirts of bands like The Violent Femmes and Depeche Mode all convey an attitude, one that is as clearly readable to those who speak that language as what you describe as the clothing of so-called black thuggery is. There are a lot of jobs, professional ones, even, to which one can really wear what one likes. I do it every day, and it is telling to me that some people are apparently most concerned about this aspect of people's behavior. I dress like the funky girl I am in almost every situation, and pretty much no one bats an eye. I'm really unaware of the universal conventions you always appeal to. What are they? Who sets and maintains them? I really don't look like the conventional career woman, yet here I am, a woman, having a career.

Simple, look into achievement and standardized scoring at various age ranges between races. I'm sure as a teacher you will be able to find more than enough information. These are not new issues. If I were to give you links you would balk at them with one excuse or another, so investigate for yourself.

The thing is, I teach students at the college level. Standardized test scores quit being predictors of success at that level. Things like creativity and independent and critical thinking begin to count more. If you want me to refer you to some professional research and journals, I'd be more than happy to. You might start with CCCCs, RSA, and the publications of the NCTE.

I find it interesting that you keep referring to the bible belt as having these problems but your home state (was it NJ? I can't look while replying) is immune in your mind?

Again, I've lived in Texas. Look up statistics for educational outcomes in terms of dropout rates, teen pregnancy rates, and higher educational attainment. TX and MS come in last. I have only lived in NJ since August. And NJ is not just one blue blob. School districts in Newark and Elizabeth, for example, do not face the same problems that suburban districts do. There are a lot of problems facing states like NJ in how they allocate tax dollars. Making assumptions about any of these things without knowledge, however, does not help. And when students are measured in terms of outcomes, NJ and NY public school graduates place second only to MA in terms of what students actually know when they leave public high school. My college freshmen are so well-prepared here when compared to the students I taught in TX that I often have tears of joy in my eyes. I do not say this to bash the South or my former students, but only to be sad about the disservice that has been done to them. Students all over the country deserve much, much more than we have given them.

Urban Detroit is empty because it's had what? Almost two million people and now has less than a million. It's a wasteland. I've been told living in Detroit is much like being in the movie 'I Am Legend'. You see the sun going down and think 'oh crap'.

I'm not going to deny Chicago has 'stuff'. Having 'stuff' to buy or do doesn't mean a place is cultured or safe. Washington DC has 'stuff' but also has a tremendous crime rate coupled with a staggering level of hiv infection in the general population.

I generously granted you that urban Detroit has had problems. I believe its problems has stemmed more from its status as a rust belt area than from anything else, and we may well disagree about that. But, again, I think comparing Chicago to Detroit is disingenuous. Chicago, in my experience, is both cultured and safe. I've walked around Chicago at all hours--it is a vibrant, beautiful American city. The difference between the two of us may be that I like urban areas way more than you do. That's cool--but then maybe it would be better if we could just agree that that is what we are really arguing about. I could be wrong, but I kind of think that is what this particular disagreement is about. As a relatively young, kinda petite, white woman, I feel much more uncomfortable in isolated, rural settings than I do in bustling ones in urban areas. Chicago bustles to me, and therefore feels safe.

Yes, my thought is that they need to stress achievement and education as worthwhile goals, not something to generate hostility toward. How this could be disagreeable to anyone is beyond me.

Again, as I said before, it seems to me that black people are talking about these goals and thinking about them quite well on their own. I wouldn't presume to know whether they want to know what I think or what you think about it. I will say that I approach this conversation with a fair bit of conciously cultivated awareness, and, hopefully, self-consciousness, that some black people might think I am putting on an air of arrogance by assuming I have something to offer in the first place. I hope that if they feel that way, they will forgive me because they see I have the best interests of all of us at heart. I'm really wondering whether you feel that way, or whether that thought even enters your mind. At this point, I'm not sure why you post on threads like this.

[love.doll]

uh oh....i didnt know we had another troll on the loose again.

-puts away my snacks-

[aqua0]

Originally Posted by Ron.

I've had enough of this idiotic behavior in the black community. It's just down right sick. There is a segment of the black population that is causing problems for the blacks that are productive and want to live a higher quality of life.

MOST black areas in major cities are total WAR ZONES. I talk with friends and family about this isse very often.

It's hard for blacks with decent incomes to find establishments that cater to blacks because those damn thugs have destroyed black communities across the country.

They tear up the properties and the violence is unbelievable. I'd like to go to a high end restaurants and stores owned by blacks but it's hard to find areas in major cities that have not been over taken black poor black thug culture.

Heck I'd like to go high end stores owned by whites if they were opening up shop in black areas but they don't and I cannot blame them.

I would bet and like to believe if those destroyed black areas in the cities were majority middle class to upper class blacks with decent to high incomes and high net worth, whites and blacks alike would open businesses in those areas.


It am totally disappointed considering all of the years of hard work blacks have put in fighting for civil rights. I also would like to add that whites helped fight for the civil rights of blacks as well. It seems as if it has been wasted. :-(


I'll probably get bashed for this thread because someone will make up 1 million excuses is to why the behavior is justified.


What are some possible solutions?

The ENTIRE black culture needs a major change. To start, the worship of black celebrities need to go. You don't need celebrities to tell you you have to look, dress, act a certain way, or make a certain amount of money. That is detrimental to the minds of youth.

Celebrities popularize attitudes and behaviors that are harmful to black youth. Instead of targetting attainable goals thru education and hard work, black youths want $ the shortcut way to live a high lifestyle -- thru drugs.

Unfortunately, these athletes and entertainers are the only role models for black youth. Replace them. Replace them with black American OR African figures (as long as they are NOT athletes or entertainers). Because these only give them UNREALISTIC expectations which force them to focus on illegal or dangerous means for money, and away from what successful average Americans do: education and hard work.

People need to stop voting for those who simply want to get your votes but refuse to do unpopular, difficult things that will improve your neighborhood.

However, I doubt if what I said can ever be applied. You can't force people to change or want change. That's the one thing that is certain.

[wethrowpie]

You should actually read your own link:
Rural methamphetamine resources

if you had you would have discovered the drastic drop in meth related crime mentioned repeatedly in the article.

"In 2008, according to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, 6,783 seizures of methamphetamine labs (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/map_lab_seizures.html - broken link) occurred, many of which were in rural areas. The encouraging news is that in 2006, there were 7347 seizures, and in 2005, there were 12,619 seizures."

I'm at a loss for why you would cite an article which clearly states such a drastic drop in meth related seizures as support for your point of view that 'meth is a huge problem'.

To be honest with you, the rest of your post reads as rather inane gibberish about 'how you feel'. The world doesn't spin based on your feelings.

You too seem to lack the ability to ascertain what I mean when I talk about people's dress, seeking to pitch individualism as some realistic alternative to dressing for success.

In previous positions I've interviewed the goth kid with rings in his nose, spiked dyed black hair, and mascara, and I've interview the black kid with his pants falling down speaking ghetto lingo.

I hired other applicants in every case who came dressed appropriately for business. The real world doesn't give a rat's ass that in your spare time you listen to death metal and mosh, or that you listen to rap and drink 40s all night.

Success is based on presenting yourself as a capable, professional individual. Nothing less.

When a culture with as many problems as black America has does not adjust it's attitude toward such things as professional presentation of self, it should not scream inequality when situations don't work for it.

And that goes for every culture, but the thread is specifically about black culture, so I'll cite it as such.

[Leisesturm]

What made you do it Ron? Was it boredom? The Relationship forum get slow or something? IMO you have really let the side down by providing the racist contingent with yet another opening to talk smack about people of color. I know your mamma told you not to air the dirty laundry out in public. But as another poster has observed there are more appropriate venues for coming out as a self hater. The tone of your post was all wrong. As a black American man you should know what is ailing your community and be informing the possibly ignorant or uninformed readers outside of it rather than soliciting their opinions. I say 'your' community because for the duration of this post I will be writing as a Caribbean American in whose expatriate community the dysfunctional, low attainment element is a much smaller percent of the total.

Had my parents migrated to any other part of the First World besides the U.S.A they would have found a greater degree of acceptance for their willingness to completely assimilate into a literate, intellectual and work ethic centric dominant culture. For reasons I do not completely understand the strand of the African Diaspora that was transported to the American South has suffered more lasting psychological damage from the ravages and traumas of slavery. I constantly go to bat for the Diaspora in this forum revealing only occasionally the fact in my mind and in the minds of many there are really three separate strands of black people and we don't all display the same degree of aptitude for assimilation. If the o.p. was African or Caribbean writing about Americans I would understand. I wouldn't approve of breaking ranks with no provocation but I would understand. For a black American to lay into thug culture from the high road is just playing to the crowd and there is something kind of annoying about it.

Cultural assimilation is the Gold Standard for minority success. For most the First Generation will never make the cut. Language, religion, culture may simply be too different to overcome in adult years. The children of the First Generation in most cases make a full adjustment. It takes two to tango though. If there is a wall of resistance on the part of the dominant culture to a minority group then the ostracism keeps that group out of the loop of cultural exchange and fosters the development of anti-social behaviors. The blacks of the American South and their descendants come honestly to a disdain of the dominant culture. Assimilarion was denied them for so long that at a certain point they stopped caring much about it. Those blacks that follow the WASP model have an especially hard road as the black culture they fit into appearancewise will rebuke speech that is too precise or a vocabulary that is too learned while those from the dominant culture will not be eager to open the ranks to dark skinned black people no matter how white their mannerisms.

By the numbers alone there cannot be huge numbers of thug homies disturbing the populace. For one thing there simply aren't that many black individuals in America in total. Only a subset of that small number are thugs. What is the fuss about? Blacks of all kinds are disenfranchised and thugs are used as a visible excuse. Black men are no more or less likely than any other race of human in similar financial circumstances to abandon young children. Black men alone of all minority groups are likely to experience intense systematic racism in employment attainment and thus are always in the leading percentages of unemployment and underemployment. As the economy worsens and joblessness starts to affect favored minority groups as well as sectors of the dominant culture, expect to see many of the same behaviors now stereotypical of American Black Men arise in those groups. I live in an area almost devoid of black people of any ethnity. There is no shortage of white thugs to keep things lively.

I do not see white people losing sleep over the part of their culture that is 'trash'. No plans to clean them up and make them fit for company. If things were bad for blacks before the meltdown they are simply impossible now. The black unemployment rate is running close to 3x the white unemployment rate. That does not factor in underemployment. The long practice of only paying black people 60% of white people for the same work is taking its toll in a time when even whites are seeing their earnings decrease by as much as 25% in some cases. This is hardly the time to be wondering what to do about thug culture and its effects on how 'good' blacks are perceived by society. There was a moment long ago, a critical juncture when full citizenhood in America need not seem like a sell out to many in the black community. The moment passed and black people are now an endangered species. AIDS, Civil Wars and Genocides are wiping out blacks in the motherland and AIDS, Gang Violence, Agressive Law Enforcement, Repressive politics and poverty are wiping out blacks in America. The 'problem' is about to take care of itself. Black people are going away and I wonder who is going to take our place at the bottom of the racial hierarchy in the U.S. and other places.

H

[wethrowpie]

By the numbers alone there cannot be huge numbers of thug homies disturbing the populace.

Crime statistics and prison populations negate this assumption.

Black men are no more or less likely than any other race of human in similar financial circumstances to abandon young children.

No, they abandon them beforehand. As previously noted, 50 to 80% of black mothers being unwed is not unusual.

Black men alone of all minority groups are likely to experience intense systematic racism in employment attainment and thus are always in the leading percentages of unemployment and underemployment.

Ah, the liberal Victim mentality I talked earlier. I wondered when that would pop up in force. Blacks as a group have a lower end of marketable skills than their white counterparts. Not to say there aren't black doctors, lawyers etc, but as a whole there is a substantial difference there, and everyone knows it. It's not 'racism' when hiring applicants to hire people who actually meet your needs.

The problem comes from categorizing it as racism instead of looking at real reasons.

As the economy worsens and joblessness starts to affectfavored minority groups as well as sectors of the dominant culture, expect to see many of the same behaviors now stereotypical of American Black Men arise in those groups.

Yeah...only not. Rural whites without skills already don't involve themselves in crime at the level of similarly situationed blacks. The crime rate of rural West Virgina which is a high poverty, low education area when compared to largely black areas similar in population etc. fully shows that.
You're WISHING it would happen, but it doesn't.

I do not see white people losing sleep over the part of their culture that is 'trash'. No plans to clean them up and make them fit for company.

Oh, don't worry, white people worry about white trash just as much as black trash. We don't issue newsletters on the subject, but it disgusts us. The real difference is that white trash usually just crashes and burns itself. Theres a much lower ratio of violence there.

The long practice of only paying black people 60% of white people for the same work is taking its toll in a time when even whites are seeing their earnings decrease by as much as 25% in some cases.

This sounds like one of those statistics that either no one can cite a source for, or the 'source' will be some extreme left liberal propaganda device. Please link.

AIDS, Gang Violence, Agressive Law Enforcement, Repressive politics and poverty are wiping out blacks in America.

A full list of things and only the first two are true, the others are excuses and propaganda.

hiv/aids: blacks are genetically more prone to hiv. hey, thats the way it is.
gangs: black kids kill other black kids (surprise?)
law enforcement: oh please.
repressive politics: yeah, Obama was really repressed, wasn't he?
poverty: self induced. am I supposed to cry for you? my grandparents were dirt poor, there was many a day my parents didn't eat growing up. They did something about it, and now have a decent life. Why can't blacks do this?

[Leisesturm]

Hey, wetcowpie, you are so far gone it may be pointless arguing with you. You accuse me of using excuses and propaganda but that is all you have done. What, because you are (obviously) white that makes your 'truth' more valid? Not. And, yes, white people do violence. State prisons are full of white felons that belong there. They are also full of black kids that do not. Obama won a highly controversial election by a hair and is having the time of his life staying alive in one of the most hostile political environments ever. And to you this says racism is over? Snap! Just like that. Well, what happened to you? You must be one of those soldiers who doesn't hear that the war is over and goes on fighting... You have obviously also forgotten how your white brothers and sisters were dying like flies when AIDS first hit. At no more or less the rate that blacks are dying now. By the numbers, there are far more 'trashy' white people than all kinds of black people combined!!! There are real reasons as to why my people have issues. There is no real reason I can see for someone born with the incredible advantage of caucasian heritage to be a failure. Get your own house in order before you sling around anymore redneck talking points.