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BY THE SAME TOKEN, I do not expect that the 'carnivores' should expect the vegan to 'suck it up' and go against their beliefs for a meal. Again, to have that expectation would be selfish on the part of the carnivore.
Some people are very militant in their beliefs that they thrust their beliefs on others. That, to me, is selfish.
If I host a dinner party, I am not serving meat or other animal products. That is not selfish. That is me being vegan. I cannot fathom any of my friends being so utterly self-absorbed, petty, and childish as to expect me to prepare anything other than that for them. If anything, they'd be into it. They're always looking for new plant-based dishes to add to their repertoire, and they love all kinds of nifty spices.
BTW, I think you mean "omnivore." Carnivores eat only meat. Think of tigers. I would hope any human who eats meat also eats something other than that. Otherwise they're going to have one heck of a plumbing bill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea
When one is invited into a home, the rules of the homeowner generally apply. I can't see getting bent out of shape when offered a meal that AVOIDS certain foods, however I might demur a meal that INCLUDED foods I had a problem with. YMMV
Exactly. I could not imagine expecting or demanding that any kind of food be available at any kind of party. It's not a restaurant. You don't get to place an order. You accept the hospitality given and you go home grateful for being invited, having spent time with your friends, and not having had to cook or clean for an evening. And if they aren't going to have anything there you can eat, you either bring a side you can eat or you don't go.
I usually opt out of going if I know that the only thing I'm going to be able to eat is a green salad and dinner rolls. I'm not going to spend three hours in the kitchen cooking for a party I'm invited to unless it's specifically a pot-luck or there's a "what to bring" list in an evite. That happened to me last winter. A friend's girlfriend invited me to a dinner party and I guess she forgot I was vegan. I think my friend reminded her a few days before because she sent me a message that she was making pot roast, and pretty much all the vegetables would be in the same pot. Initially I thought to try to figure out what kind of side I could bring, but I ended up backing out for a few reasons, not all of them having to do with the menu, but I'll spare you the details.
And THAT said, I take a pulse of guests before I decide the menu when I host. I won't serve animal products, but I don't want anyone with a food allergy dropping dead at my table, either. I will ask a general "any dietary restrictions I should know about?" and go from there. If someone I invite into my home and cook for just cannot live without eating a dead animal or animal products for one flippin' meal in a year full of meals, they are more than welcome to not join us. TBH, I probably wouldn't be good friends with someone like that in the first place. Too...militant.
I think that we've established that "selfish" is a derogatory term that involves discourtesy at the least (if not abuse) towards other people. A disregard for the needs of others, in addition to the focus on one's own priorities.
So the question to ask is just if we are being appropriately courteous in various situations.
(Funny side note, a very dignified older lady once taught a series of classes based on Emily Post's huge book, "Etiquette" from 1922...at the BDSM club I used to be part of. I always said it was about so much more than sex, didn't I? We learned how to host formal dinner parties, too!)
Ehm, anyhow... I think that as a host, it's best to inquire about any special dietary needs of guests. I tend to like serving a big spread of buffet style options that can accommodate a variety of diets and preferences, myself, if I'm inviting more than just a few other people to anything.
I think that it's also good to be honest about the food options when inviting people over and understanding if some people decline your invitation for that reason or any other, or in fact none at all. No one has to show up. I hope that in 2023 we are not petty enough to be counting slights and snubs. And as a very picky eater with significant food restrictions, if I am invited to a "dinner party," unless I know ahead of time that there will definitely be things I'll eat there, I will almost always pre game. If pressed, I can claim I overdid it at a previous meal earlier in the day and while I did not mean to, I'm just not hungry. But always with great praise about how lovely everything looks and smells, and I am perfectly happy being at a table nibbling a bread roll, or sipping a drink, and being actively involved in conversation with everyone.
There are ways to make it not awkward. And I think a lot of etiquette around such things is just trying to avoid awkwardness or offense.
It is not selfish of a vegan to refuse to cook or serve animal products. What I do think is a bit over the line, is if for instance a vegan got angry with a neighbor for having a cookout because they stepped outside and smelled the burgers cooking on the grill. Like...I am sorry that this is a bother to the vegan, but one cannot reasonably expect everyone around them to change their diets or avoid traditional food activities they may wish to enjoy, and smells in the air are a bit difficult to contain...and of course there's the basic "property rights" consideration. One should show more consideration outside of one's home. I wouldn't take an extremely smelly dish to work and heat it up in the breakroom of a small office space, but if I lived in an apartment building and someone was cooking a pungent dish somewhere...it is what it is.
I don't expect anyone at a dinner party to actually accommodate me...but I do expect them not to insist I eat things that I really don't want to eat. Making sure that I am not sitting there suffering from feelings of hunger, that's my problem. I know how I am. It's my job to manage myself. I go to gatherings for the company anyhow, not generally for the food.
Have read one too many threads about some people who THINK someone is being "selfish".
My goodness...if a woman doesn't want to DATE a guy, somehow, she's being 'selfish'. If she doesn't want to have sex, she's being 'selfish'.
if a dude doesn't give a buck to a homeless guy, that dude is being selfish.
Where does selfishness begin and end?
What SAY you?
I would distinguish between being self interested and being selfish. There is a reason that on planes the stewardess tells you to put the oxygen on your head before you put it on someone else. If you aren't taking care of yourself, you are in no position to take care of anyone else.
So I would say your fist priority is to take care of yourself and then your own family. After that, I think you should look out for others.
But I also think that there are real limits on what you can do for others.You can help others, but it's not your job to do the heavy lifting. If the other person isn't,t trying as hard as you are, you are doing too much. If you are making efforts on behalf of others, but the other person is not getting better, but you are making yourself worse off. Move on to a situation you can improve or make your own life easier.
Some problems aren't fixable by you and you need to move on to greener pastures.
I would distinguish between being self interested and being selfish. There is a reason that on planes the stewardess tells you to put the oxygen on your head before you put it on someone else. If you aren't taking care of yourself, you are in no position to take care of anyone else.
So I would say your fist priority is to take care of yourself and then your own family. After that, I think you should look out for others.
But I also think that there are real limits on what you can do for others.You can help others, but it's not your job to do the heavy lifting. If the other person isn't,t trying as hard as you are, you are doing too much. If you are making efforts on behalf of others, but the other person is not getting better, but you are making yourself worse off. Move on to a situation you can improve or make your own life easier.
Some problems aren't fixable by you and you need to move on to greener pastures.
"And crawling... on the planet's face, some insects, called the human race. Lost in time, and lost in space, and meaning."
Selfish is another subjective word people use to attack others.
My wife (now ex wife), told me I was selfish for planning to make a career change that was going to provide us with a windfall of money. The caveat is that I would be away from home. In my mind, that's sacrifice to better our quality of our lives, in her mind it was selfish for being away from home.
Welcome to the real world. You could give someone a million dollars, and they would still call you selfish for not doing it again the next year. Or not doing it sooner.
My wife (now ex wife), told me I was selfish for planning to make a career change that was going to provide us with a windfall of money. The caveat is that I would be away from home. In my mind, that's sacrifice to better our quality of our lives, in her mind it was selfish for being away from home.
Hypothetically, it could be argued both of you were being selfish (or at least poor communicators) for not discussing or understanding a change that affected both of you (sans any consideration for how it impacted the other). If you had said your career change was relative to personal growth and career satisfaction (as opposed to a ‘windfall’ of money), it would be a different story.
I think that we've established that "selfish" is a derogatory term
that involves discourtesy at the least (if not abuse) towards other people.
Not even close to correct.
Although there are a lot of people who want to redefine the term recently.
Recently, they (you?) seem to want to redefine a lot of terms in long use.
As to discourtesy and abuse, they have their own definitions too.
I prefer to use them.
"And crawling... on the planet's face, some insects, called the human race. Lost in time, and lost in space, and meaning."
It's just a jump to the left...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
Not even close to correct.
Although there are a lot of people who want to redefine the term recently.
Recently, they (you?) seem to want to redefine a lot of terms in long use.
As to discourtesy and abuse, they have their own definitions too.
I prefer to use them.
And yet I'm not seeing your own take on the word anywhere in this thread. If you find my summation to be so very incorrect, please feel free to share yours.
And what is the definition of any word, but a summary explanation made up of other words? I mean. That's how dictionaries do it.
I don't think that I am redefining anything. I think that any time I've ever heard the word, "selfish" used to describe someone, it has gone beyond them considering their own needs in a healthy and balanced way, and into territory where other people feel that they are at least being thoughtless or discourteous, if not all the way into neglectful or abusive, depending a lot on the context. The implication always seems to be "you are so focused on yourself that you have no space to consider other people around you."
If not for the second part, then nobody would care what you're focusing on, because it has no effect upon them.
As a rhetorical example, if we see a toddler playing alone with a toy, no other children in the room, they are not being "selfish"...but if there is a second child there who wants to have a turn, and the first one is refusing to share the toy, one might say "don't be selfish, share the toy." The implication there, to teach the first child to care what other people feel and to be a good member of a society as such. As with most criticisms and indictments of poor behavior in human beings, it comes down to a question of "pro-social" versus "anti-social" behavior, with space for a neutral state in between.
How do we determine if a selfish situation exists? Is selfish just people against people? Is one being selfish if they protect animals before the needs of people? Was Dian Fossey selfish, promoting the great ape over tourism (and hence income for the region)? Or, in the fictional sense, is Indiana Jones selfish with his constant "It belongs in a museum!".
I don't know.
Last edited by TamaraSavannah; 08-25-2023 at 04:08 PM..
Selfish is expecting vegans to go against their deeply held beliefs and values to accommodate a meat-eater who could very easily have meat at lunch if they want it so badly. Would you ask a Jew to serve ham for you? Come on.
Not even close to being the same.
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If she doesn't want to have sex, she's being 'selfish'. 
