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Not me, but...
In the American Psychological Association (APA) dictionary, the definition of “selfishness” is listed as: the tendency to act excessively or solely in a manner that benefits oneself
I never understood how people who don't want kids are selfish.
I think there are extremes. I've seen people get divorced pretty quickly without trying to work things out even if the other person wanted to and in some ways that seems selfish (as long as there was no abuse going on etc). seems like some folks wake up pretty quickly one day and decide they're not happy with their current life and they set out to change it no matter who they might hurt in the process. There's very little loyalty to others, it's kind of an it's all about me way of life people.
To me selfishness is when a person doesn't take the other person into consideration. No one is entitled to another so not wanting to date someone or have sex with them isn't selfish. Someone who doesn't give may or not be doing it for selfish reasons but I don't see how it's required. Dehumanizing the homeless would be selfish to me. "I don't want to" is fine.
In my thinking it kinda comes down to obligations and entitlements, which in a way are two sides of the same situational coin. Like if I accept an obligation, then the other person has an entitlement. Most agreements feature an exchange of obligations and entitlements. And we often have to evaluate whether our expectations about our entitlements are in fact reasonable, or not.
And we all have to decide in a very subjective way, which of our entitlements and obligations are valid. Which is going to generally come down to something that's more opinion than fact...though enough evidence can pile on to nudge it toward the latter. Ends up being often a case of a "reasonable person" judgment.
So take employment. I have an obligation to do the work that my employer wants me to do, in the time they have told me it's expected to be done, and they have an obligation to pay me an agreed upon amount for doing so. Some employers cheat their employees in ways that are harmful enough that most reasonable people see such a practice as unethical, and I've certainly seen employees who seemed to expect that an employer would bend over backwards and break all the rules to accommodate them, such that it's unrealistic expectations of entitlement...like the employee who seems to think that they can call off work to recover from partying, on a weekly basis or something, and slack off when they are on the job, and that harms not only the employer but their customers/clients, and the coworkers who have to pick up the slack. That employee is being selfish.
When I had kids, I had a very strong belief that it was the greatest obligation of my life. That my own interests and needs must ALWAYS take a backseat, or go unmet if necessary, to ensure that theirs were accommodated at all times. My own parents did not see it that way when they raised me. My ex husband didn't see it that way. But I did. I could only get my own interests and needs some attention if and when the needs and interests of the kids were all checked off and tended to.
Maybe I did that to excess, but I don't believe that I parented them wrongly. And like most parents, I was perhaps overcorrecting from the things that hurt me growing up...because I have, many times over the years, felt that my parents barely cared if I stayed alive.
Now my first marriage on the other hand? Well, different story. And with a nod to msRB311's post above, here's what I think about that... I met and partnered with him as a young and unwise person and under serious duress from the circumstances I was in. But I always believed that if you work hard and make a lot of sacrifices and you grab the right opportunities, then you can succeed in life. And that if you do all of that, you have an ENTITLEMENT to enjoy some security and some comfort that you worked for and you earned. And setting aside the abuse, which certainly did occur, and which prompted me to leave my ex sooner than I had ever planned to... I still was not happy with him even when things were alright, too much of the time. Because he did not share that belief, that the life you build through hard work and sacrifice has value. To him, happiness is stupid and frivolous, it's a moron chasing a butterfly across a field with no regard to land mines. His priority is survival. So when we worked our butts off and ended up buying a nice house, and he was able to retire and did not even have to work, and his friends were near and he had it MADE...I thought, well, now he should be happy. We've made it and now we can all have a nice, happy life and finish raising these kids.
But no, not him. He had to create drama and problems. A life of ease was enough to make a mental wreck of him. He destroyed the house, just trashed it. He terrorized the kids. He expected me to sit in the stinky garage chain smoking and watching him do drugs and drink and talk non stop about how wretched he was.
My obligation to him, did not extend so far as to throw my life and my happiness and all the goals I'd ever had, out the window. I guess he thought that it should, but I didn't agree. He still thinks I'm selfish. He thinks I left because I was chasing that butterfly and it was probably shaped like a strange D with wings or something. None of that was true. But I stopped caring what he thinks a long time ago.
My opinion? It is NEVER....NEVER..."selfish" to protect yourself from harm. And past a point where you might try to make sure everyone understands, and they have a chance to remedy things if perhaps they simply made a mistake...past that point, it does not matter if the person who is harming you thinks that they are or not. You know if you are being harmed. Psychologically, physically, emotionally, financially. You know. A person has a right to protect themselves and to have boundaries. If other people don't like that, tough crap.
And now that my kids have grown up, I include them in that statement as well. Though I admit it's been very, very hard to figure out where the boundaries need to be, and to put them down and stand behind them firmly.
Some of us need to be very careful how we look at a word like "selfish." It's a concept that people who take advantage of others will be very quick to throw out there the moment a person tries to have healthy boundaries, and tells them no.
As for my ex, well, if full on undeniable abuse of the physically life threatening variety had not been a part of the picture I might have tried harder to stick with him until the kids were grown, since that's what I was trying to do at least. I had hoped that when we reached that point, perhaps he'd be "better" in terms of his happiness and mental health. But my obligation to make serious sacrifices lay with our children, not with him, not past a certain point. A grown arse adult can only ask so much of me.
In my thinking it kinda comes down to obligations and entitlements, which in a way are two sides of the same situational coin. Like if I accept an obligation, then the other person has an entitlement. Most agreements feature an exchange of obligations and entitlements. And we often have to evaluate whether our expectations about our entitlements are in fact reasonable, or not.
And we all have to decide in a very subjective way, which of our entitlements and obligations are valid. Which is going to generally come down to something that's more opinion than fact...though enough evidence can pile on to nudge it toward the latter. Ends up being often a case of a "reasonable person" judgment.
So take employment. I have an obligation to do the work that my employer wants me to do, in the time they have told me it's expected to be done, and they have an obligation to pay me an agreed upon amount for doing so. Some employers cheat their employees in ways that are harmful enough that most reasonable people see such a practice as unethical, and I've certainly seen employees who seemed to expect that an employer would bend over backwards and break all the rules to accommodate them, such that it's unrealistic expectations of entitlement...like the employee who seems to think that they can call off work to recover from partying, on a weekly basis or something, and slack off when they are on the job, and that harms not only the employer but their customers/clients, and the coworkers who have to pick up the slack. That employee is being selfish.
When I had kids, I had a very strong belief that it was the greatest obligation of my life. That my own interests and needs must ALWAYS take a backseat, or go unmet if necessary, to ensure that theirs were accommodated at all times. My own parents did not see it that way when they raised me. My ex husband didn't see it that way. But I did. I could only get my own interests and needs some attention if and when the needs and interests of the kids were all checked off and tended to.
Maybe I did that to excess, but I don't believe that I parented them wrongly. And like most parents, I was perhaps overcorrecting from the things that hurt me growing up...because I have, many times over the years, felt that my parents barely cared if I stayed alive.
Now my first marriage on the other hand? Well, different story. And with a nod to msRB311's post above, here's what I think about that... I met and partnered with him as a young and unwise person and under serious duress from the circumstances I was in. But I always believed that if you work hard and make a lot of sacrifices and you grab the right opportunities, then you can succeed in life. And that if you do all of that, you have an ENTITLEMENT to enjoy some security and some comfort that you worked for and you earned. And setting aside the abuse, which certainly did occur, and which prompted me to leave my ex sooner than I had ever planned to... I still was not happy with him even when things were alright, too much of the time. Because he did not share that belief, that the life you build through hard work and sacrifice has value. To him, happiness is stupid and frivolous, it's a moron chasing a butterfly across a field with no regard to land mines. His priority is survival. So when we worked our butts off and ended up buying a nice house, and he was able to retire and did not even have to work, and his friends were near and he had it MADE...I thought, well, now he should be happy. We've made it and now we can all have a nice, happy life and finish raising these kids.
But no, not him. He had to create drama and problems. A life of ease was enough to make a mental wreck of him. He destroyed the house, just trashed it. He terrorized the kids. He expected me to sit in the stinky garage chain smoking and watching him do drugs and drink and talk non stop about how wretched he was.
My obligation to him, did not extend so far as to throw my life and my happiness and all the goals I'd ever had, out the window. I guess he thought that it should, but I didn't agree. He still thinks I'm selfish. He thinks I left because I was chasing that butterfly and it was probably shaped like a strange D with wings or something. None of that was true. But I stopped caring what he thinks a long time ago.
[b]My opinion? It is NEVER....NEVER..."selfish" to protect yourself from harm. And past a point where you might try to make sure everyone understands, and they have a chance to remedy things if perhaps they simply made a mistake...past that point, it does not matter if the person who is harming you thinks that they are or not. You know if you are being harmed. Psychologically, physically, emotionally, financially. You know. A person has a right to protect themselves and to have boundaries. If other people don't like that, tough crap.
And now that my kids have grown up, I include them in that statement as well. Though I admit it's been very, very hard to figure out where the boundaries need to be, and to put them down and stand behind them firmly.
Some of us need to be very careful how we look at a word like "selfish." It's a concept that people who take advantage of others will be very quick to throw out there the moment a person tries to have healthy boundaries, and tells them no.
As for my ex, well, if full on undeniable abuse of the physically life threatening variety had not been a part of the picture I might have tried harder to stick with him until the kids were grown, since that's what I was trying to do at least. I had hoped that when we reached that point, perhaps he'd be "better" in terms of his happiness and mental health. But my obligation to make serious sacrifices lay with our children, not with him, not past a certain point. A grown arse adult can only ask so much of me.
What I bolded strikes me most about your post. Yes, some people DO throw out the word 'selfish' against others, and claim that they're being 'harmed'...simply because the other person isn't giving them their way! To them, unhappiness ='s "harm". If HE wants to go to the beach, and I don't want to go to the beach (because it's only 65 degrees out), I'm being "selfish." Apparently, I'm being "selfish" because he's not getting his way...which 'harms' him...because he's unhappy.
Since when does unhappiness ALWAYS lead to 'harm'?
Back in the 1960's, and author named Ayn Rand wrote a book called, 'The Virtue of Selfishness.' . But her definition of selfishness was "concern with one's own interests." Yet, the dictionary definition was similar (back then) to hers. The dictionary said, "Excessive concern with one's own interests at the expense of others." Rand focused on the non-italicized part of the definition, and I think because she was considered to be a "New Age" thinker, many adopted her definition. So, anytime, anyone is 'concerned with their own interest' they're being 'selfish'.
I'm a grown-arse adult myself. I know that I can't always get my way, and I have no problem compromising (obviously, depending on what 'it' is). You want Chinese. I want Italian. Can we compromise? Not having Italian isn't going to send me into some tantrum.
But for many, it does. And yet *I'M* the one who's "selfish"!
Selfishness is open to interpretation. One can blame someone for being selfish without realizing they themselves are being selfish for expecting you to do something they want. I think everyone is selfish to an extent, but there isnt necessarily anything wrong with that as we all need to do what is best for ourselves.
Take a smoker for instance. Is it selfish of the smoker to not quit for his girlfriend, or is it selfish of the girlfriend to want him to quit?
What I bolded strikes me most about your post. Yes, some people DO throw out the word 'selfish' against others, and claim that they're being 'harmed'...simply because the other person isn't giving them their way! To them, unhappiness ='s "harm". If HE wants to go to the beach, and I don't want to go to the beach (because it's only 65 degrees out), I'm being "selfish." Apparently, I'm being "selfish" because he's not getting his way...which 'harms' him...because he's unhappy.
Since when does unhappiness ALWAYS lead to 'harm'?
Back in the 1960's, and author named Ayn Rand wrote a book called, 'The Virtue of Selfishness.' . But her definition of selfishness was "concern with one's own interests." Yet, the dictionary definition was similar (back then) to hers. The dictionary said, "Excessive concern with one's own interests at the expense of others." Rand focused on the non-italicized part of the definition, and I think because she was considered to be a "New Age" thinker, many adopted her definition. So, anytime, anyone is 'concerned with their own interest' they're being 'selfish'.
I'm a grown-arse adult myself. I know that I can't always get my way, and I have no problem compromising (obviously, depending on what 'it' is). You want Chinese. I want Italian. Can we compromise? Not having Italian isn't going to send me into some tantrum.
But for many, it does. And yet *I'M* the one who's "selfish"!
I don't get it...
Nah, and I will point to something that I contemplated a great deal when I was with my ex and as I processed our split...
My idea of him harming me, making me unhappy = Instances where he radiated nastiness, anger, violence, meanness, negativity. He was actively pushing a negative energy out into interactions. He was taking.
His idea of me harming him = Refusing to give him any positive thing he wanted. Whether that was him wanting me to do work so he didn't have to, or wanting sex even after he'd been mean and nasty to me an hour ago, or wanting my time and emotional labor...
You have to see that difference and it's hard to see it sometimes through the lens of programming that women are supposed to be "nurturing and loving" and men are supposed to be more aggressive beings and that's just how it naturally is... Especially for those of us raised to take bad behavior from parents and yet give only good behavior unless we wanted to be hit for instance. That good ol' codependent programming, where a person is trained to have no expectation or understanding of their right to healthy boundaries against harm. Where if we so much as dare make a peep that "hey, um, I'm a person over here and do have needs actually" we are being "SELFISH."
No. Or maybe yes and it doesn't matter. That level of self regard is fine. In fact, a great deal MORE is fine if we're talking about needs you can meet with your own resources. Because guess what? Only each one of us can decide if another person gets to rank higher than ourselves with regard to the resources (time, energy, money, whatever) that we give. I might have decided that my kids had a valid claim on a higher level of personal resources...but I believe I had every right to say that my husband had no right to drain my resources especially if he wasn't refilling my cup from the other direction.
No one has a right to blast me with meanness and violence and then demand only love. NOPE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangman66
Selfishness is open to interpretation. One can blame someone for being selfish without realizing they themselves are being selfish for expecting you to do something they want. I think everyone is selfish to an extent, but there isnt necessarily anything wrong with that as we all need to do what is best for ourselves.
Take a smoker for instance. Is it selfish of the smoker to not quit for his girlfriend, or is it selfish of the girlfriend to want him to quit?
I know that this was rhetorical but most likely the smoker wants to quit but they are addicted and will probably struggle with it for a while and maybe manage it eventually...but I don't know that a person manages to accomplish this for another person.
Really when you get together and bond with someone, it's not a question of selfishness so much as realism, that you should not have a list of necessary demands of things they need to change to be a suitable partner to you. You take them as they are, and if they change for the better, then it's a bonus and worth celebrating together.
And another thing... A ton of times, two people just are not a good match. They're just plain not compatible. Bottom line, full stop, how it is. And contrary to the way that many frame things and a lot of what we hear in breakups and relationship struggles, there is not a clear cut hero and villain to the story. There's not one person who is definitively right and the other definitively wrong. A breakup should not be about punishing anyone for doing things you don't like or want them to do. Being broken up with isn't necessarily a declaration that you have no value, a punishment for being unworthy or bad. It can just mean that the other person arrived at the conclusion that you're not a good fit for their future.
Which is the problem I've got with the idea that anyone requires a mate to live a whole life and the idea that once you "get" one, you're entitled to keep them forever no matter what. My ex said in a recent phone conversation that he has shut off and shut down any thought of ever being in another relationship for the rest of his life, because "no relationship lasts forever." (As in, even if you never break up, one of you will probably die before the other and loss of some kind will still happen eventually.) Like this is some kind of a shocking secret he has uncovered? I'm over here like, why in the hell did you ever think that they did? We are not immortals, dude. He's acting like the universe lied to him all his life or something. Leaves me wondering if he expected me to jump off a bridge holding his hand one day or what? Of course...in actual reality, I DID fear for a little while that he might end up being what they call a "family annihilator." Thankfully not.
But anyways. It is not selfish to be the owner of your own life. Yes, the smoker should quit. Not for anyone else, for themselves. Likely they know that. (Smoker here, and believe me I sure as hell do.) But the non-smoker, well, they should never be angry at the smoker for their habit, if the smoker had it when they met. You take someone as they come. But they have every right to decide that it's not a good fit for their lives and to walk away from it. They own their own life. No need to scream and shout, no need to be a hero or a villain. No punishment. No winner or loser to being the dumper or the dumped, it's not a game like that. You don't get any points for being the one to walk away.
Even if I decide to not go somewhere with my friends, I'm not selfish. It would probably have something to do with my illness and most people understand that. Wanting to be good to myself and my health, is not selfish. If my 94 yr old Dad wants something, I usually do it, no matter what I'm feeling, although I have postponed, like paying bills or making him something special, it's not selfish.
OTOH if I don't help someone, who is having trouble, that is clear, that is selfish to me. Like walking, carrying groceries, things like that.
If someone cuts in front of me and I don't say anything, they are selfish.
I think selfishness is not respecting or helping others when needed.
Refusing a date or sex is just stupid as being selfish. Everyone has their own feelings. Boy some of them just push their way through life, being selfish all the time. I know some of those.
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If she doesn't want to have sex, she's being 'selfish'. 
