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I know of a number of marriages that have resulted from the woman making the first move. An overt move, not batting her eyelashes at him, "orbiting", or other subtle gestures. Shy or initially passive guys become very active once it dawns on them that the seemingly miraculous has occurred: serious female interest has entered their airspace. That's different, though, from the JNTIY phenomenon, where the guy will give mixed signals without ever taking the initiative, even after she gets the ball rolling. If you throw the ball into his court, and he doesn't pick it up and run with it, well, then he's JNTIY.
Yep, I also know a couple of very successful relationships wherein the woman made the first move. My brother and SIL's long, happy marriage began that way.
But those instances of men truly being "too clueless" or "too shy" to initiate are far less common than we like to think. What's usually the case is that the man's level of interest and/or commitment does not make him feel compelled to make his clear and sincere interest understood.
The world is brimming over with beautiful, intelligent, warm, and engaging women. All you have to do is stop ignoring them.
There is another place here regarding one dating someone he's unsure of. Lots of advice given by many, discussing his dating life.. at some point he stated, "If those women are out there, I am not seeing them". I responded with, "That's just it.. you're not seeing them".
It's just one of those things men and women go through differently. Women feel this pressure to be as thin as a twig, try to look young and use all kinds of products to slow down the aging process, lose weight, etc. Why? Because men place some importance to a woman's looks before seeing the whole package.
We know where the obese, over the hill woman ends up compared to the young slender sexy woman.
For men, there's this pressure to show a good economic status or they will be seen as no good.
We all know where nice guys who live in their parents basement, no car, no job, and no money, end up compared to a nice guy who happens to be rich, drive a nice cool car, and lives in a fancy house.
Generally speaking, men and women place importance in certain traits.
Women are well aware of the pressure that is projected upon them and it seems to have worsened. You had referred to this ideal as in "those women", admitting here that men "place some importance to a woman's looks before seeing the whole package". So, how do you expect that to change, if men continue to not see the whole package (as you yourself suggested that women should see of of males?) Do you see how this goes both ways? (Which was my point in my previous post to you, in which I apparently had no impact).
So, where DO women end up, if not "young, slender and sexy"? (not that the latter will remain so, either). And a guy who lives in his parent's basement - what age are we talking here? I will tell you, it is doubtless that women of any age or status would be interested a guy who is car-less and not self-sufficient, even if nice. I can see maybe, a young girl whose boyfriend is finishing college or is in between jobs, but who has potential, in this situation.. but older? I personally never knew anyone like that, knowing those with jobs, cars and their own places, not that any of it was always "fancy".
And just to say, a guy who "has fancy stuff", is not necessarily nice and women do in fact seek out the nice guy, who may not always have it together in ways at different stages, but who are good men, who are intelligent and well-groomed, for instance. Women who are what you believe to be "perfect looking" are not necessarily bright, emotionally well, thoughtful, warm, nice, good, etc., or worth it. Nobody is perfect. What is it you expect? (I can hear it now..."Yeah, but..."). And traits are of a person, circumstances are different.
The sad thing is, the scenarios in relation to life and relationships you are suggesting are:
A "rich guy equalling being with a perfect-looking female".
A "poor guy equalling an unfulfilled DESIRE for a perfect-looking female".
A "less attractive, average, heavy or older female", apparently dead in the eyes of males everywhere, will never possibly know of the male experience..
I am really not wanting to get on your case, but maybe, just maybe...those like yourself could become trailblazers so to speak, to recreate a new standard, since it looks like both males and females want to be seen for who they are, as human beings with value, beyond superficial aspects.
Suppose one of these guys at Whole Foods or the gym comes up and says, how about we get together for coffee and discuss the merits of "The Great Gatsby" or whether George Orwell's narrative was transparent and lame? But you don't find him particularly attractive. What are you going to say?
Guy to guy? It's always with the excuses. If you walk up to someone at the gym and babble insensibly at a woman, of course she's going to put a lot of distance between you and her. What's more, a gym or a grocery store are incredibly stupid places to hit on anyone. Why? Because 99% of women just want to work out or shop and get on with their lives.
Oh, sure, if you get to know someone at the gym because you've been in the same class a long time, go for it. But, unless you're Bradley Freaking Cooper, walking up to someone on the elliptical is the lamest of all possible approaches. It has the funk of desperation mixed in with that of sweat.
Guys who consistently fail to meet women do so because they are...clueless. That's right. Literally clueless. They've never bothered to learn the bazillion social clues that are obvious to anybody with normal developmental skills. The worst ones are the ones who pay fealty to a mechanistic view of How The World Should Be rather than paying careful attention to How The World Is. You see this all the time in the Nice Guy whine, as in "I am nice, I have good manners, so why can't I find someone?" These are people who think women are little more than Xbox controllers where just pushing the right combination of buttons will have the ladies falling at their feet begging to bear their children.
I really can't believe I'm having to write this stuff, but here goes:
1) Ask yourself, "Would I date me?" Look at yourself in the mirror. No, you don't have to dress like something out of the pages of GQ. No, you don't have to look like a stud who can bench-press Volkswagens and runs half-marathons before breakfast. But, c'mon man, put a little effort into it. Quit wearing that monogrammed polo shirt that you got from a vendor at a technology show and wear some real clothes, the kind that have some personality to them. Get off the couch 3-5 times a week and get thirty minutes of exercise. It'll get rid of that unhealthy pallor to your skin that screams of Netflix binging in your mother's basement.
2) Learn that a conversation is not an information download. Conversation is really easy once you understand it. If you're the person initiating the conversation, you keep it positive, but neutral. Asking her seven seconds into it about her job, her dating status, and where she lives makes you look at best like you're assembling a dossier on her. At worst you look like something out of Silence Of The Lambs.
You can tell the clueless and socially inept in that regard because they rail against "small talk." What they don't understand is that no talk is small and, quite frankly, people usually aren't in the mood to discuss Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, and Heidegger at a cocktail party or after their aerobics class. So consider small talk to be Level One of a video game, the part of the game that's supposed to be easy. And if you are an astute person, small talk actually reveals a great deal about the other person. It is fraught with meaning. Writers such as Henry James, F. Scott Fitzgerald and Chekhov created timeless masterpieces out of small talk on the parts of their characters. In other words, small talk is their test to see if you're interesting enough to talk about deeper stuff as things continue.
One you pass Level One, however, conversation doesn't have to get harder. Ask open-ended questions. Not personal questions like cup size or if she plans to have children. Rather, mutual acquaintances, how she's enjoying the party, and a host of other things. If she likes you, she'll reveal herself layer by layer in the things she tells you. If you get the short answers as her eyes flick about the room, then move on. For once, be the person who politely ends the conversation rather than her. Just this simple act will stop you being slotted as a desperate nebbish.
3) Remember what your grandfather taught you about meeting people. Manners matter a great deal. You can always tell the idiots because they want to argue that good manners are some anachronism. These are the people I referred to earlier as those decrying How The World Should Be. Maybe at a frat party keg, but among actual adults, they are really the simple rules to achieving social comfort between people. As in shake hands, look people in the eye (No staring. You'd be surprised how many people do that), remember their names, and be a good listener. No, you're not some effete nincompoop for doing it. Instead, you're showing the other person that they matter. If you spend enough time around executives, politicians, and celebrities, the most successful almost always have impeccable manners when they meet someone for the first time. At least the ones that last do. Steve Jobs could be an ass because, hey, he was Steve Jobs. You are not Steve Jobs.
4) I already mentioned this, but keep it positive. There's this weird belief circulating among some of the socially clueless that if you are a reasonably upbeat person, you are shallow. They say this mostly because it dignifies whatever pubescent nihilism they still harbor. But everybody else on the planet hates it. Sure, you can get down about things. Sure, you can have pet peeves. No, you don't have to act like a cast member of Up With People. But when you spend the first five minutes of your conversation running other people down and telling someone all the things you hate about the world, you have become the person who sucks all the joy out of the room. People like others with passion and energy, and those who complain about the world are the exact opposite of that. So talk about what you like in life first, and leave your dislikes for another conversation.
5. Finally, it's a numbers game. Meet lots of people. If you stake your entire happiness on scoring a relationship that woman with a nice smile down in purchasing, then you are likely overlooking Janet in Marketing who thinks you're a snack. Hey, when I met MrsCPG, it was as if a door opened and all I had to do was step through it. Our first conversation was all of twenty minutes. While the angels wept at the beauty of the moment, I didn't hang onto her leg while she circulated about the room. I didn't ask for her phone number. I didn't corner her by the potted palm. Instead, I remember her name, filed it back for later retrieval, and called the host the following Monday to make inquiries. I spent an entertaining evening talking to a number of other people at the party rather than trying to coax someone into my bed. Worked for me.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Great post above. I agree with all, except perhaps #2. But heavy conversations tend to be more the norm, and expected, in my city since it is full of "overeducated" types, where yeah, dive bar conversations about Faust are equally the norm as conversations about the ball game. The last person I hit it off with "small talking" at a beer garden we mostly talked about the Abenaki's quest for tribal recognition and Native American treaty rights. LOL. It was pretty hot.
I did read your post, and understand you are perfectly able to provide for yourself. But, one of the problems you cited was that your (former) boyfriend felt he would never make enough money to provide for you.
Maybe he should take a look at his driver's license; that might help.
Now maybe, just maybe, most of these guys were at the grocery store to buy groceries, or at the gym to work out (crazy thought, I know). Maybe they weren't there to meet women; quote possibly they already had wives or girlfriends. By the way, when did holding a door for someone mean she was super attractive? If I open a door for an elderly person, I do it out of courtesy, not because I think he or she is attractive.
Suppose one of these guys at Whole Foods or the gym comes up and says, how about we get together for coffee and discuss the merits of "The Great Gatsby" or whether George Orwell's narrative was transparent and lame? But you don't find him particularly attractive. What are you going to say?
He felt that was the problem. I never did. I reassured him he provided in many other ways--emotionally, etc.
Take a look at his license...that's just an asinine comment. He let other people's opinions sway him with everything--and I mean everything. He had a very malleable personality and I was one of two people in his life who encouraged him to make his opinions, values, etc.
I'm sure quite a few of them do have wives or girlfriends... but I highly doubt all of them. What is stopping those who didn't?
I was wayyyyy behind many of these guys who were holding the door--the the point the door would have closed and they would have been way inside. It was clearly intentional while I was walking up. I too hold open doors as a courtesy--this was just noticable.
I love F Scott AND Orwell. If the guy is nice and I'm getting good vibes off of him, I'm willing to give anyone a chance--at least for a cup of coffee. If anything, I would get a new friend out of the situation.
Great post above. I agree with all, except perhaps #2. But heavy conversations tend to be more the norm, and expected, in my city since it is full of "overeducated" types, where yeah, dive bar conversations about Faust are equally the norm as conversations about the ball game. The last person I hit it off with "small talking" at a beer garden we mostly talked about the Abenaki's quest for tribal recognition and Native American treaty rights. LOL. It was pretty hot.
An clarification to #2. If it works right off the bat, outstanding. But while the goal is to get to that point of discussing Metternich or Dadaism or the Second Defenestration of Prague, more often than not you have to ramp up a bit. That's all I'm trying to say.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,981,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
An clarification to #2. If it works right off the bat, outstanding. But while the goal is to get to that point of discussing Metternich or Dadaism or the Second Defenestration of Prague, more often than not you have to ramp up a bit. That's all I'm trying to say.
He felt that was the problem. I never did. I reassured him he provided in many other ways--emotionally, etc.
Take a look at his license...that's just an asinine comment. He let other people's opinions sway him with everything--and I mean everything. He had a very malleable personality and I was one of two people in his life who encouraged him to make his opinions, values, etc.
I'm sure quite a few of them do have wives or girlfriends... but I highly doubt all of them. What is stopping those who didn't?
I was wayyyyy behind many of these guys who were holding the door--the the point the door would have closed and they would have been way inside. It was clearly intentional while I was walking up. I too hold open doors as a courtesy--this was just noticable.
I love F Scott AND Orwell. If the guy is nice and I'm getting good vibes off of him, I'm willing to give anyone a chance--at least for a cup of coffee. If anything, I would get a new friend out of the situation.
There you have it in a nutshell. If you put out good vibes, you've made it past Level One, guys. If you come off as weird and awkward, it's Game Over.
You know it really is funny the turn this thread has taken. I thought this thread was about attractive women who have trouble finding dates. And now it's become all about men being the problem again. I guess men are the reason why some of these women can't find dates.
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