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I mean, many marriages and/or relationships center around what one person can do for or offer the other -- and many times offering or withholding sex is part of the package. And many marriages are simply business arrangements anyways, so is it really much different than paying for sex?
I wanted to unpack this idea a little better, in Act two of this episode a female to male transsexual describes the consequences of taking a large dose of testosterone as part of the transitioning process. One of the things this person discusses is under larger levels of testosterone sexual desire becomes much more goal directed. Its goal directed in the sense of becoming more preoccupied with thoughts of women's boobs and butts, but also much more preoccupied with taking the steps necessary to get a girlfriend so sex can happen.
The reason I suspect your t-levels might be low, is that this aspect of male sexuality seems less present in you or at least in how you describe your internal narrative of your desire.
Women are pretty accepting of this goal directed aspect of male sexuality because when women do finally agree to have sex with you, you will notice that they have erogenous zones in there boobs and butts. So at a later aspect of mating process, this aspect of male sexuality becomes a feature for women.
When women become upset being objectified, their complaint isn't that there is an aspect of male sexuality that is goal directed as much as they are upset that males can sometimes ignore that there is a person with thoughts and feelings and concerns beyond just their boobs and butts. But as long as they feel comfortable and secure in their relationship with you women will willingly wear lingerie highlighting there boobs and breasts for you because in the right context, they actually enjoy sexualized attention from you.
What I am getting at is that you don't need to repress this aspect of male sexuality. Women are not actually shaming you for this aspect of male sexuality, in the right context they enjoy it.
You're not the first person to suggest that my testosterone is low. In the interest of addressing that variable, I got my testosterone checked. It's not low. My doctor says it's in the middle of the healthy range for men my age.
That being said, even when my testosterone would have been at its highest (late teens,) I didn't feel compelled to pursue women, even when I found their physical form alluring. The reason for this is simple: I always saw arousal and inter-connectivity between people as two distinctly separate things. If arousal (or desire) is the impetus for contact, that perpetuates a predator/prey dynamic because there is an inherent goal (or agenda) underlying the contact. This would invariably prevent the two people from connecting as people. And since it's the inter-connectivity that is truly important, desire actually gets in the way of that.
Unless I'm mistaken, what you appear to be suggesting is that I should lean into that dynamic, rather than avoid it. The saving grace being that the goal-oriented desire might ignite her responsive desire. In that way, these two roles (or types of desire) tend to go well together. If I'm misunderstanding your post, I apologize.
I believe that the negative reactions I have observed in women is BECAUSE of that very desire that you describe. The presupposition being that a man is making contact with a woman solely for that reason alone. For example, when I was trying to return a wallet, or ask a woman what floor she needed in the elevator, I saw annoyance, fear, trepidation and/or disgust, NOT because I was trying to return a wallet or be courteous in the elevator, but because she was ASSUMING that I was being driven by desire.
There seems to be an avoidance of discussing or even acknowledging the baggage of this predator/prey dynamic. How likely is it that men and women can interact out in the world WITHOUT this goal-oriented desire casting a dark shadow over the interaction? In my experience, it is extremely common for women to have their guard up against these inevitable advances. You are implying that it's perfectly fine, and possibly even welcome, and yet I have observed quite the contrary. If I can't even return a wallet to a woman without the baggage of this predator/prey dynamic, how could she possibly feel safe if I were actually pursuing her? In other words, I have seen absolutely no evidence that this type of contact is desirable. It may be a means to an end, and perhaps we have resigned ourselves to it's necessity for procreation, but I don't see anything that suggests that it's welcome.
You're not the first person to suggest that my testosterone is low. In the interest of addressing that variable, I got my testosterone checked. It's not low. My doctor says it's in the middle of the healthy range for men my age.
It was a variable that I thought was worth checking out. But I thinks its great a clean bill of health in this area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfellowPerson
That being said, even when my testosterone would have been at its highest (late teens,) I didn't feel compelled to pursue women, even when I found their physical form alluring. The reason for this is simple: I always saw arousal and inter-connectivity between people as two distinctly separate things. If arousal (or desire) is the impetus for contact, that perpetuates a predator/prey dynamic because there is an inherent goal (or agenda) underlying the contact. This would invariably prevent the two people from connecting as people. And since it's the inter-connectivity that is truly important, desire actually gets in the way of that.
Just because you can identify elephant trunks and elephant ears as two separate and distinct things, that doesn't mean that aren't still all part of a larger system that works together (the elephant). What you are doing right now is your pointing to the trunk and saying is that an elephant and I am saying yes and then your pointing to the ears and saying well that can't be an elephant because it not a trunk and then being frustrated when I say the ears and the trunk are all part of the elephant.
Depending on the level of abstraction we are discussing the elephant, the elephants ears and elephants trunk could be two separate things or it could be all part of one system (the elephant).
Just because we can discuss arousal and interconnectivity as though they were two distinctive things at a different level of abstraction they can still be thought of one system (your interactions with a woman).
When a surgeon operates on a patient to fix their heart is there a predator/prey dynamic at work here? If not why not? Remember the surgeon is stabbing the patient and ripping their heart out and there is blood everywhere. There is an inherent goal (or agenda) underlying this contact (fixing the heart by stabbing the patient).
The reason we consider surgeons heroes and not criminals is consent. Because the patient consented to the surgery. there is no predator/prey dynamic at work here at all. The reason we ask women out is to get their consent to doing stuff with us. Women are adults who capable of making adult decisions for themselves. In the right time and right place women are capable of multiple orgasms and enjoying sex more than we do. In the right relationship with the right guy women can have libidos as strong or stronger than their partners
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfellowPerson
Unless I'm mistaken, what you appear to be suggesting is that I should lean into that dynamic, rather than avoid it. The saving grace being that the goal-oriented desire might ignite her responsive desire. In that way, these two roles (or types of desire) tend to go well together. If I'm misunderstanding your post, I apologize.
I am not saying that when you meet a girl your opening line should be you have great boobs. But you do want to make your interactions man to woman. One of the reasons I ask women out to do something at specific time and a specific place is to clarify my intentions with a woman. Men are bigger and stronger than women, women feel safer around a man they don't know that well when they have a sense of what is motivating your actions with them. Asking a woman out, even when she says no is flattering and not intimidating to a woman as long as you graciously respect her no if she is not interested. I have married female friends who were asked out by guys who didn't realize they were married and they laughed about the process and took a certain measure of pride that they were still attractive enough to have someone still asking them out. I myself have asked out women who I didn't realize at the time were married and because I was gracious about this rejection, we could both laugh about the experience afterward. Women don't actually fear you asking them out, they fear that you will not accept their no gracefully if they are not interested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfellowPerson
I believe that the negative reactions I have observed in women is BECAUSE of that very desire that you describe. The presupposition being that a man is making contact with a woman solely for that reason alone. For example, when I was trying to return a wallet, or ask a woman what floor she needed in the elevator, I saw annoyance, fear, trepidation and/or disgust, NOT because I was trying to return a wallet or be courteous in the elevator, but because she was ASSUMING that I was being driven by desire.
You are engaging in mind reading here. The more likely reason you saw annoyance, fear, trepidation and/or disgust is she just didn't know why you are approaching her in the first place. You might have been there to try to get her to convert to your religion, to join a multilevel marketing scam, to try to get her to vote for a political candidate she hates or to just spare change her. There are a lot of reasons that a given woman might feel scared in a given situation. But that doesn't mean that women as whole are rejecting every aspect of your sexuality. I think you are drawing an unfairly harsh view of women and your own sexuality here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfellowPerson
There seems to be an avoidance of discussing or even acknowledging the baggage of this predator/prey dynamic. How likely is it that men and women can interact out in the world WITHOUT this goal-oriented desire casting a dark shadow over the interaction? In my experience, it is extremely common for women to have their guard up against these inevitable advances. You are implying that it's perfectly fine, and possibly even welcome, and yet I have observed quite the contrary. If I can't even return a wallet to a woman without the baggage of this predator/prey dynamic, how could she possibly feel safe if I were actually pursuing her? In other words, I have seen absolutely no evidence that this type of contact is desirable. It may be a means to an end, and perhaps we have resigned ourselves to it's necessity for procreation, but I don't see anything that suggests that it's welcome.
Why does desire have to be a dark shadow? Women read romance novels recreationally where they enjoy stories of romantic tension in the air. If a man's desire for a woman was something that women loathed why do they seek out stories of it recreationally when no one is forcing them to do so? Think about chick flicks, what are they, mostly romantic comedies about a guy pursuing a girl. When you watch them how often is desire portrayed as casting a dark shadow over the interaction?
Women feel safe when they sense that you care enough about them to protect them from the other dangers in the world. When you drive a car, do you wear a seatbelt? Are you white knuckling it the entire time you are driving around? Yes women take sensible precautions when the meet someone new, but sensible precautions isn't the same thing as women loathing the fact that you have sexual thoughts about them. Again later in the dating process, a man's libido is a feature in your relationships. Women like sex, a woman who loves you enjoys having sex with you and is excited that you want to have sex with her.
Jewel not only performed this song, she actually wrote the song and the wrote the lyrics. Its one of my favorite songs. Listen and think about the lyrics here and think about whether Jewel or any woman thinks that male desire is a dark shadow.
Shelato I think you are way way off. Go to any women's group on social media. They do not want to be hit on in public, and certainly not by ugly men. You're living in a fantasy world created in your mind by television
Shelato I think you are way way off. Go to any women's group on social media. They do not want to be hit on in public, and certainly not by ugly men. You're living in a fantasy world created in your mind by television
I agree that they women don't want to be hit on at work by a man in position of power who has the ability to limit their success at work if they don't agree to going out with that man.
I also agree that women don't want to date someone that think is unattractive, but there is a pretty wide range of what different women think is attractive. There are women who love Justin Beiber and there are women who hate him. Spend some time on a Saturday Morning watching all of the married couples streaming out of Costco. There are plenty of people, I wouldn't personally be attracted to who found each other and got married. But I am sure if you talked to these people they would all say that they are attracted to their spouses.
The dilemma for a lot of women is this, they are lonely and would like to have someone in their life, so they would like to ask some guy out, but the reason they feel they can't is they feel that if they did, that guy would push for sex right now, when the reason they want to ask someone out is to figure out if there is compatibility between the two of you, not because they want to agree to sex right now with you. So they are waiting for someone to approach them and ask them out first.
Women go to bars, nightclubs and sign up for on line dating platforms because they are lonely and want someone to ask them out. There are women signing up for a tango class, attending meet up groups and volunteering animal shelters in part to meet new people and find a boyfriend.
Now there are both male and female subcultures turned off by dating. There are some mgtow men who don't want to have anything to do with women and I am sure that there is some segment of the militant feminists who also are equally skeptical of dating men. But most healthy people want to be in a healthy relationship with someone else. They realize that going on dates is part of that process and they accept their roles in that process.
I have asked women out, I have had girlfriends, I have had sex with these women. My experience isn't based on a fantasy world created by television.
I am not saying that when you meet a girl your opening line should be you have great boobs. But you do want to make your interactions man to woman. One of the reasons I ask women out to do something at specific time and a specific place is to clarify my intentions with a woman. Men are bigger and stronger than women, women feel safer around a man they don't know that well when they have a sense of what is motivating your actions with them. Asking a woman out, even when she says no is flattering and not intimidating to a woman as long as you graciously respect her no if she is not interested. I have married female friends who were asked out by guys who didn't realize they were married and they laughed about the process and took a certain measure of pride that they were still attractive enough to have someone still asking them out. I myself have asked out women who I didn't realize at the time were married and because I was gracious about this rejection, we could both laugh about the experience afterward. Women don't actually fear you asking them out, they fear that you will not accept their no gracefully if they are not interested..
I was making a distinction between arousal and inter-connectivity as the underlying reason for the contact in the first place. I wasn't implying that arousal would automatically eliminate common courtesy. I was basically saying that women can see through the courtesy to the agenda, which would inevitably set the tone for the interaction, no matter how careful I am. I have heard from countless women that they know, without doubt, that men are single-minded of purpose, and it's something that they have to put up with. Have you never heard of women humoring men, tip-toeing around their fragile egos? Just because a woman is listening to you or being polite doesn't mean that your contact is welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
You are engaging in mind reading here. The more likely reason you saw annoyance, fear, trepidation and/or disgust is she just didn't know why you are approaching her in the first place. You might have been there to try to get her to convert to your religion, to join a multilevel marketing scam, to try to get her to vote for a political candidate she hates or to just spare change her. There are a lot of reasons that a given woman might feel scared in a given situation. But that doesn't mean that women as whole are rejecting every aspect of your sexuality. I think you are drawing an unfairly harsh view of women and your own sexuality here..
The woman in the supermarket was absolutely thinking I was going to hit on her. I don't have to be a mind reader to know that. If you had been there, you would agree. I walked up to her and said "excuse me, miss?" and she spun around, put her hand in my face and said "I don't think so!" She didn't think I was trying to talk to her about religion or anything like that. She was clearly putting up a wall against inevitable advances. The woman in the elevator, same thing. That was at work. She worked in a different department. I asked what floor she needed, and her body language got cold and closed off and then she ran out of the elevator the first chance she got. This was clearly a way for her to have her voice heard without having to say anything. What I read from that reaction was "this is not okay, don't even go there." I read that loud and clear, and I respect that. I don't need her to tell me with words. My contact was unwelcome, and I respect that. Besides, I'm only using these as examples of my observation of the hostile world that women are sometimes drowning in. And, in these threads, people seem to be encouraging me to contribute to that world, but to do it respectfully. I find it discouraging that more people don't question that dynamic, hence my continued questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
Why does desire have to be a dark shadow? Women read romance novels recreationally where they enjoy stories of romantic tension in the air. If a man's desire for a woman was something that women loathed why do they seek out stories of it recreationally when no one is forcing them to do so? Think about chick flicks, what are they, mostly romantic comedies about a guy pursuing a girl. When you watch them how often is desire portrayed as casting a dark shadow over the interaction?
Women feel safe when they sense that you care enough about them to protect them from the other dangers in the world. When you drive a car, do you wear a seatbelt? Are you white knuckling it the entire time you are driving around? Yes women take sensible precautions when the meet someone new, but sensible precautions isn't the same thing as women loathing the fact that you have sexual thoughts about them. Again later in the dating process, a man's libido is a feature in your relationships. Women like sex, a woman who loves you enjoys having sex with you and is excited that you want to have sex with her.
.
I have heard from countless women (and read many stories) about men being single-minded of purpose and driven by their desire. Irrespective of my negative view of it, the fact is, women KNOW that this is why a man would be making contact with them. It's a foregone conclusion for many women based on their experiences with men. The only difference here is that you claim that it's a positive thing. I would offer the caveat that it's only a good thing if she is open to the advances, which you would only know AFTER making contact with her. I addressed this in my first thread: I don't think it's okay for men to take their chances just in case she's interested. It puts women in the position of having to reject unwanted advances (OR more likely, tiptoe around what she assumes will be a fragile ego.) I have seen the repercussions of this, even though I've never pursued a woman (my examples above are just two of many.) Just think about that for a moment: women are hit on SO MUCH that they see aggression even when it's not there. This has been compared to PTSD. Does that not seem like the fallout from years of unwanted contact at the hands of aggressive, entitled men? And you're claiming that they like it? I'm merely saying that I've never seen any evidence that it's okay, or that women welcome it.
That Jewel song is about enjoying someone's company in bed. That has nothing to do with a random guy walking up to her to initiate contact (or pursue her in any way.) Yes, people enjoy each other's company sometimes, and women may enjoy sex just as much as the next person. That doesn't mean that I would assume that a specific person would want to enjoy my company. The dark shadow is the agenda, not the desire itself. He's putting his needs above hers. And in this hostile world that women are drowning in, why would we encourage men to lean into that role? Why not take a more thoughtful approach? It seems that people are trying to encourage me to maintain the status quo of gender roles. It's mind boggling to me. Even though I've explained my position and written at length about the things I've observed, people still are essentially saying I'm wrong for not pursuing women. I think any woman who has been compelled to put up walls against men's inevitable advances would find what's being said in these threads disturbing.
I was making a distinction between arousal and inter-connectivity as the underlying reason for the contact in the first place. I wasn't implying that arousal would automatically eliminate common courtesy. I was basically saying that women can see through the courtesy to the agenda, which would inevitably set the tone for the interaction, no matter how careful I am. I have heard from countless women that they know, without doubt, that men are single-minded of purpose, and it's something that they have to put up with. Have you never heard of women humoring men, tip-toeing around their fragile egos? Just because a woman is listening to you or being polite doesn't mean that your contact is welcome.
The woman in the supermarket was absolutely thinking I was going to hit on her. I don't have to be a mind reader to know that. If you had been there, you would agree. I walked up to her and said "excuse me, miss?" and she spun around, put her hand in my face and said "I don't think so!" She didn't think I was trying to talk to her about religion or anything like that. She was clearly putting up a wall against inevitable advances. The woman in the elevator, same thing. That was at work. She worked in a different department. I asked what floor she needed, and her body language got cold and closed off and then she ran out of the elevator the first chance she got. This was clearly a way for her to have her voice heard without having to say anything. What I read from that reaction was "this is not okay, don't even go there." I read that loud and clear, and I respect that. I don't need her to tell me with words. My contact was unwelcome, and I respect that. Besides, I'm only using these as examples of my observation of the hostile world that women are sometimes drowning in. And, in these threads, people seem to be encouraging me to contribute to that world, but to do it respectfully. I find it discouraging that more people don't question that dynamic, hence my continued questions.
I have heard from countless women (and read many stories) about men being single-minded of purpose and driven by their desire. Irrespective of my negative view of it, the fact is, women KNOW that this is why a man would be making contact with them. It's a foregone conclusion for many women based on their experiences with men. The only difference here is that you claim that it's a positive thing. I would offer the caveat that it's only a good thing if she is open to the advances, which you would only know AFTER making contact with her. I addressed this in my first thread: I don't think it's okay for men to take their chances just in case she's interested. It puts women in the position of having to reject unwanted advances (OR more likely, tiptoe around what she assumes will be a fragile ego.) I have seen the repercussions of this, even though I've never pursued a woman (my examples above are just two of many.) Just think about that for a moment: women are hit on SO MUCH that they see aggression even when it's not there. This has been compared to PTSD. Does that not seem like the fallout from years of unwanted contact at the hands of aggressive, entitled men? And you're claiming that they like it? I'm merely saying that I've never seen any evidence that it's okay, or that women welcome it.
That Jewel song is about enjoying someone's company in bed. That has nothing to do with a random guy walking up to her to initiate contact (or pursue her in any way.) Yes, people enjoy each other's company sometimes, and women may enjoy sex just as much as the next person. That doesn't mean that I would assume that a specific person would want to enjoy my company. The dark shadow is the agenda, not the desire itself. He's putting his needs above hers. And in this hostile world that women are drowning in, why would we encourage men to lean into that role? Why not take a more thoughtful approach? It seems that people are trying to encourage me to maintain the status quo of gender roles. It's mind boggling to me. Even though I've explained my position and written at length about the things I've observed, people still are essentially saying I'm wrong for not pursuing women. I think any woman who has been compelled to put up walls against men's inevitable advances would find what's being said in these threads disturbing.
Bravo, afellowPerson, bravo!!!!!!!! Well-written, well said.
I was making a distinction between arousal and inter-connectivity as the underlying reason for the contact in the first place. I wasn't implying that arousal would automatically eliminate common courtesy. I was basically saying that women can see through the courtesy to the agenda, which would inevitably set the tone for the interaction, no matter how careful I am. I have heard from countless women that they know, without doubt, that men are single-minded of purpose, and it's something that they have to put up with. Have you never heard of women humoring men, tip-toeing around their fragile egos? Just because a woman is listening to you or being polite doesn't mean that your contact is welcome.
The woman in the supermarket was absolutely thinking I was going to hit on her. I don't have to be a mind reader to know that. If you had been there, you would agree. I walked up to her and said "excuse me, miss?" and she spun around, put her hand in my face and said "I don't think so!" She didn't think I was trying to talk to her about religion or anything like that. She was clearly putting up a wall against inevitable advances. The woman in the elevator, same thing. That was at work. She worked in a different department. I asked what floor she needed, and her body language got cold and closed off and then she ran out of the elevator the first chance she got. This was clearly a way for her to have her voice heard without having to say anything. What I read from that reaction was "this is not okay, don't even go there." I read that loud and clear, and I respect that. I don't need her to tell me with words. My contact was unwelcome, and I respect that. Besides, I'm only using these as examples of my observation of the hostile world that women are sometimes drowning in. And, in these threads, people seem to be encouraging me to contribute to that world, but to do it respectfully. I find it discouraging that more people don't question that dynamic, hence my continued questions.
I have heard from countless women (and read many stories) about men being single-minded of purpose and driven by their desire. Irrespective of my negative view of it, the fact is, women KNOW that this is why a man would be making contact with them. It's a foregone conclusion for many women based on their experiences with men. The only difference here is that you claim that it's a positive thing. I would offer the caveat that it's only a good thing if she is open to the advances, which you would only know AFTER making contact with her. I addressed this in my first thread: I don't think it's okay for men to take their chances just in case she's interested. It puts women in the position of having to reject unwanted advances (OR more likely, tiptoe around what she assumes will be a fragile ego.) I have seen the repercussions of this, even though I've never pursued a woman (my examples above are just two of many.) Just think about that for a moment: women are hit on SO MUCH that they see aggression even when it's not there. This has been compared to PTSD. Does that not seem like the fallout from years of unwanted contact at the hands of aggressive, entitled men? And you're claiming that they like it? I'm merely saying that I've never seen any evidence that it's okay, or that women welcome it.
That Jewel song is about enjoying someone's company in bed. That has nothing to do with a random guy walking up to her to initiate contact (or pursue her in any way.) Yes, people enjoy each other's company sometimes, and women may enjoy sex just as much as the next person. That doesn't mean that I would assume that a specific person would want to enjoy my company. The dark shadow is the agenda, not the desire itself. He's putting his needs above hers. And in this hostile world that women are drowning in, why would we encourage men to lean into that role? Why not take a more thoughtful approach? It seems that people are trying to encourage me to maintain the status quo of gender roles. It's mind boggling to me. Even though I've explained my position and written at length about the things I've observed, people still are essentially saying I'm wrong for not pursuing women. I think any woman who has been compelled to put up walls against men's inevitable advances would find what's being said in these threads disturbing.
It's pretty sad that men cannot approach women in a public place without them cringing. I have a female friend that would seriously laugh at how these women would react. She's an overall friendly person and chats with anyone that approaches her pretty much. Of course, it's in her nature, but she does acknowledge how women these days tend to demonize men. She is the kind of woman that gets along with men so well. Kind of a rarity.
Even a man that would just approach them for utilitarian purposes...like asking for directions or whatever food product that they have a question on in the hospital. One time I asked a woman about a particular piece of gym equipment that I didn't have knowledge about and what it was used for. Was met with a cold-shoulder. Another time, a woman was behind me in line and I didn't mean to make eye contact with her, but when I did...I do like I do with most people, smile and say hello (with on intent in starting a conversation). She doesn't say "Hello" back, just looks away...total lack of common courtesy.
In fact, it's going against the grain of how our parents did it back in the day. Had my mom reacted to my dad the way those 2 women did....I would not be here. He cold approached her on the beach. He wasn't introduced through friends or wasn't via a social gatherings. Just struck up a conversation.
Now that everyone are buried in their phones when they are out and about, approaching for even asking for directions is met with the grocery store (B word) that put her hand in your face. Yes, she was quite rude. The only reason I call her that was based on her presumptuous attitude. Likely full of herself.
Going back to the phones, people are so glued to that method of socializing, that they reached a level of disconnected-ness that interacting face to face with someone has become quite alien.
There are even memes that reflects this....even with friends it happens!
I recall this meme where it shows someone's reaction to an incoming call from the same person that had been texting them....it freaks them out to even answer it.
So now we have people that are socially stunted via these devices.
Last edited by ThisTown123; 11-29-2019 at 03:18 AM..
It's pretty sad that men cannot approach women in a public place without them cringing. I have a female friend that would seriously laugh at how these women would react. She's an overall friendly person and chats with anyone that approaches her pretty much. Of course, it's in her nature, but she does acknowledge how women these days tend to demonize men. She is the kind of woman that gets along with men so well. Kind of a rarity.
Even a man that would just approach them for utilitarian purposes...like asking for directions or whatever food product that they have a question on in the hospital. One time I asked a woman about a particular piece of gym equipment that I didn't have knowledge about and what it was used for. Was met with a cold-shoulder. Another time, a woman was behind me in line and I didn't mean to make eye contact with her, but when I did...I do like I do with most people, smile and say hello (with on intent in starting a conversation). She doesn't say "Hello" back, just looks away...total lack of common courtesy.
In fact, it's going against the grain of how our parents did it back in the day. Had my mom reacted to my dad the way those 2 women did....I would not be here. He cold approached her on the beach. He wasn't introduced through friends or wasn't via a social gatherings. Just struck up a conversation.
Now that everyone are buried in their phones when they are out and about, approaching for even asking for directions is met with the grocery store (B word) that put her hand in your face. Yes, she was quite rude. The only reason I call her that was based on her presumptuous attitude. Likely full of herself.
Going back to the phones, people are so glued to that method of socializing, that they reached a level of disconnected-ness that interacting face to face with someone has become quite alien.
There are even memes that reflects this....even with friends it happens!
I recall this meme where it shows someone's reaction to an incoming call from the same person that had been texting them....it freaks them out to even answer it.
So now we have people that are socially stunted via these devices.
*Sigh*
I'm not at all surprised you are unable to empathize with women on this particular topic. Not wanting to be hit on does not always have to with a woman being full of herself or bitchy. I used to be like your "friend" until the nonsense kept getting me into trouble. All the things you mentioned about asking for directions, how something works, etc,. guys have to used as an excuse to hit on me. Even my friends have told me I needed to stop being so talkative with people and called me a tease because of it. Sometimes they see what a person's intentions are before I do. When I used to work in a women's clothing store at the mall, guys would walk by catcalling and pretending to buy things for their "mom's/sisters" so they could talk to me and my coworkers.
I'm not one to assume that every guy who tries to talk to me is trying to hit on me, but 80% of interactions I've had with them ended up with them doing just that. Most of the time they can't help themselves, not necessarily because of me, but because it's in their nature or they were taught to always try to cease the opportunity. Am I demonizing them for it? No, I just think a lot of them are one track minded and oblivious to everything but what they want at that moment. I've been stuck in conversations that made me late for things, held me up from doing what I was doing at work etc. Trying to be nice so I don't hurt anyone's feelings or be thought of as a rude b word. I would never put my hand in someone's face like the woman Afellowperson mentioned because that's not in my character.
Some women have been flat out physically/verbally attacked/assaulted for rejecting men. Of course that's rare, but it only takes one time for someone to hear about something like that to put them on high alert. And your attitude just kind of confirms why some women feel the need to protect themselves and don't want to have that awkward conversation. You haven't considered that maybe a woman doesn't want to talk because she has a place to be, someone she loved could've just died, she got fired at work, maybe she was previously assaulted, etc. You talk about us making unnecessary assumptions and you're doing the same thing. I think you need to re-familiarize yourself with the real world instead of your little bubble.
I wish we lived in a world where we could be friendly with no ulterior motive behind it. As I wouldn't have restrict myself so much because I love passing conversation, but from what I've seen and experienced, it's not always so innocent.
*Sigh*.
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I wish we lived in a world where we could be friendly with no ulterior motive behind it. As I wouldn't have restrict myself so much because I love passing conversation, but from what I've seen and experienced, it's not always so innocent.
Very good points, as usual!
It reminds me of an old boss in my 20s, he told me he’d like me to go out to dinner with one of our clients. I said no, because I had a bf. He got mad and replied: “Not every man wants to get in your pants you know!” Kind of a guilt/shame thing to make me think if I don’t “just be nice” I’m really arrogant or conceited.
Same with a guy who wants more than idle chit chat out in public, starts out with idle chit chat! I don’t feel obliged to be polite when I’m not in the mood for chatting. What guy asks a woman for directions, anyway? I’d sense that was a ploy to distract me and steal my purse or shove me in the van. No thanks, can’t help ya “Bundy”!
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