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I've had two student loans. One I paid off by the time I was 30; the other I'm paying off completely by myself. I don't expect any man to take on my debts. I'm sorry it seems that happened to you.
This is how I interpreted the thread title's "independent woman" idea. Someone who handles adult responsibilities and takes care of her business. Who wouldn't want that? But I see the discussion has taken the phrase in a completely different direction. Someone who supports herself and is disciplined at paying her bills is not someone who would "wear the pants" in a relationship. This is simply what a self-actualized and responsible adult looks like. That's someone who would contribute her share to a relationship. What's the big deal?
This is not about me. I’m doing alright. I am simply stating what is true statistically across the United States. Anecdotes are not how the real world works.
People know in their heart of hearts that what I’m saying is basically correct.
A man better be willing to pay off a woman’s student loans if he wants to have an actual relationship with her.
So your view is men must be able to buy the women they are interested in?
Sorry, my I do not view men as that..... pitiful? Generally speaking. Sure uber-rich guys have more of a tendency to buy their trophy wives, so to speak. Meaning, those women would never go out with them if they weren't rich. But that is a very limited niche group.
Most of the couples I know married financial equals, sure some of the guys made more, and some of the women made more. But overall they were similar.
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I saw some advice on other threads about finding your joy, following your interests. The thing is, you can't do it too much or you won't be that good a candidate for a committed relationship unless the guy is a lot like you are and is in sync with your needs, meaning, he operates the same way you do and respects your need to maintain your interests, hobbies and lifestyle.
I would agree in general.
But I think when you have kids, it changes.
Commonality or not, your family is in your face all the time and you either sink or swim. There's not really that much time for independence.
My friend tries to duck out some Saturdays and do his own thing and sometimes he gets yelled at sometimes he doesn't.
I think with a childless couple, there's lots of room for independence and it's probably expected just to keep from suffocation.
But I would say in general, the average person absolutely wants a family and wants people around a lot of the time.
Like we aren't even all on the same page about what we're talking about, I don't think. I suppose that "independent woman" carries some baggage that is going to resonate differently to different people.
On the positive side (and usually in the minds of women) it seems to mean a woman who may want a man, but does not need one to survive. One who can have expectations in a relationship about how she needs to be treated, or she will leave, because she can. Basically someone who doesn't have to and therefore will not, put up with things like abuse or infidelity.
Also someone with decent self esteem, so she is not going to be desperately looking to men to tell her what she's worth.
But I think that in the minds of some men, especially those who are feeling sour on dating for whatever reason, it means a woman who is bossy or domineering, who wants all the power in a relationship with none of the responsibilities? A woman who would not look at (rhetorical) "you" because you don't make a ton of money, perhaps? Or one who "acts single" when in relationships, flirting with men and running around partying?
I mean, first of all, I don't think that "independent" should be mistaken for "emotionally unavailable" or "avoidant." Not the same concept, though easily misconstrued. The fact is, one must be willing to take some emotional risk and be vulnerable, in order to really engage in intimacy with another person. I think that in a healthy relationship, the prospect of a breakup is not something one would contemplate coolly with no expectation of emotional pain, yet neither person should look at it with a sense of "I don't think I could literally live without the other person" survival terror.
Secondly... If a man needs to feel like he has leverage and his woman does not, that he must hold power or control, and indeed requires it in order to keep a woman or compete with other men or force her to behave in ways that don't make him feel insecure about the relationship... Honestly I see that as a serious red flag. In the individuals I've known in person who are like that, they see "want" as frivolous and not something they can control, so they require a state of "need" to be present to enforce the existence of the relationship. Perhaps because they cannot envision being someone that anyone would WANT to be with, they normalize that by thinking that all people are unpleasant some/most of the time, so the "want" piece is a mere trifling and mercurial whim, that could change at any moment? Or perhaps it's as simple as the struggling person reading their dating difficulties as "no one wants to be with me" so imagining that in the evidenced absence of that, they need to seek a situation where "need" is driving the situation?
One poster here mentioned a scenario in which the "independent woman" refused to cancel a fun outing to care for an ill partner. I found that interesting. Is a man supposed to also care for his sick wife, if need be? I would hope? Well, in reality it's not very common for women to abandon the sick who need care. It's men who do that.
So that example was a bit on the preposterous side.
Far more realistic is the concern that I think some men have, that their wife will want to have friends and family and activities that do not revolve around him, and that may involve her wanting to go do things without him sometimes. But in my observation this is not all that gendered of a problem, because there are women who struggle to trust men who want to go spend time apart, as well. I think that this is a compatibility issue where a relatively insecure partner seems to think that their discomforts form a set of objective rules that they are entitled to impose upon their S.O. It usually causes problems and can even become abusive. (BTDT.)
So I think that an "independent woman" who is having a hard time, needs to ask herself if she's been encountering a lot of insecure men and why that might be, and also whether she is conflating "independent" in her own interpretation of her behavior with what comes off to others as "emotionally unavailable" or "avoidant."
And a man who feels offended by the concept of an "independent woman" should perhaps have a think about what exactly he's defining this as, and whether he is fairly seeking compatibility with someone who does not have a big social life, because he doesn't want to do much apart (how much "space" both people need, or don't)... Or is he reacting out of insecurity and a desire to exert control, because he can't trust? Like what, really, is going on there?
Let's not turn this discussion into all about me. I am interested in the experience of other independent-minded women and also how men feel about it.
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I don't think guys really like a woman that is quite so independent. Maybe "inter"dependent but not too independent. They like women who are a bit more dependent.
That has been my experience in my relationships as well as what I observe. Many men seem to like to be needed and looked up to as a child would to an adult, almost need to feel superior. I think I resolved to be independent when I was about 5 from observing my parent's relationship. Perhaps this is why my relationships fail.
The men I know who seem to be very good to their wives and in long term relationships have wives who are quite dependent on them in everyway. They have no interests or hobbies of their own, can't make decisions on their own, can't handle responsibility. A lot of men IMO just want their SO to become an extension of themselves.
I'm not saying all men are like this, I've certainly seen the opposite, but it does seem to be common enough in my personal experiences.
I would also agree with this, even though I've seen some marriages where they are bet friends and do everything together. Relationship coaches will tell you that a man needs to feel needed and looked up to and that is true but it's also true for women. That's where the equality comes in IMO.
This is not about me. I’m doing alright. I am simply stating what is true statistically across the United States. Anecdotes are not how the real world works.
People know in their heart of hearts that what I’m saying is basically correct.
A man better be willing to pay off a woman’s student loans if he wants to have an actual relationship with her.
Oh. The old 'statistics' wheeze. In truth, the studies are all over the map. However, later ones, find that the the divorce rate is actually decreasing in marriages where women earn higher incomes. This is likely because of a generational shift in attitudes towards women outearning men.
Secondly... If a man needs to feel like he has leverage and his woman does not, that he must hold power or control, and indeed requires it in order to keep a woman or compete with other men or force her to behave in ways that don't make him feel insecure about the relationship... Honestly I see that as a serious red flag. In the individuals I've known in person who are like that, they see "want" as frivolous and not something they can control, so they require a state of "need" to be present to enforce the existence of the relationship. Perhaps because they cannot envision being someone that anyone would WANT to be with, they normalize that by thinking that all people are unpleasant some/most of the time, so the "want" piece is a mere trifling and mercurial whim, that could change at any moment? Or perhaps it's as simple as the struggling person reading their dating difficulties as "no one wants to be with me" so imagining that in the evidenced absence of that, they need to seek a situation where "need" is driving the situation?
This is why my last relatoinship failed. Wanting the relationship but not wanting to relinquish control. Also, trying to make me jealous and admire him because women came on to him in public places. It's just such a silly game... but insecure, controlling people play those games. I still hear with regularity how he misses me and wonders what went wrong. He's been advised a zillion times why but it doesn't sink in, sadly.
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Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And a man who feels offended by the concept of an "independent woman" should perhaps have a think about what exactly he's defining this as, and whether he is fairly seeking compatibility with someone who does not have a big social life, because he doesn't want to do much apart (how much "space" both people need, or don't)... Or is he reacting out of insecurity and a desire to exert control, because he can't trust? Like what, really, is going on there?
I do see differing definitions on this thread, which is fine as long as the definition is healthy, but in a relationship both people need to generally be in sync regarding the definition of independence.
Some men like independent women and some don't, but my experience is that very few men like a woman who is more successful than they are, or who are better at life skills or earning, or sports, or anything else.
Many want a woman with a good income, up only up to the point where the woman doesn't have a more important higher status job than they have. Some men enjoy having a wife who can take care of herself and entertain herself and keep busy without making demands on his time or energy.
Home is where most men expect to always be the "winner" in the contest of life and they don't handle it well when the woman is more successful than they are. Not all men, but a very large percentage of them. They welcome success, but it has to stop short of surpassing them.
I agree. Many years ago I read about a very successful doctor who was a real badass at work, and when interviewed about her successful marriage she explained that when she is home she is a completely different person: "traditionally feminine," submissive, passive, domesticated... I think it makes a lot of sense for some women if it comes naturally to them.
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