Do men have a responsibility to make women feel safe? (ugly, clubs)

[WaikikiWaves]

Very seldomly have I seen a relationship fail because a woman felt unsafe in the way being talked about here. Unsafe because she feels intimidated by her man, or unsafe because she feels her man will just run away if someone attacks her.

What I have seen is women often feeling unsafe but for entirely different reasons. Unsafe in this sense means not secure in the relationship, because they didn't trust their man to be faithful, a good father, or didn't feel like they could count on them to solve a difficult problem, or just be a person they could lean on.

Since this thread was started by a man, ask yourself if you were someone else, would you want your present self around to help you in a difficult challenge. Are you someone that others can count on, in other words.

[MrSykes]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

When we talk about topics of men and women some posters make it about men vs women. Lets see where we agree. Feel free to add...

Feeling safe is different from being safe
We are all responsible for our own safety
Keeping ourselves out of unsafe situations is first and forement
Men have greater physical capacity to protect women from violence
Men have a responsibility to protect their female partners
Women have a resonsibility to protect themselves and family when their partner is not around
People should 'watch out' for other people, especially those more vunerable

You might get some push back on these points if you haven't already, as I notice that whenever a woman's responsibility for her own safety is brought up (especially by a man), the topic usually defaults to men needing to own up to their responsibility not to be the reason women even need to be safe.

[DubbleT]

Originally Posted by MrSykes

You might get some push back on these points if you haven't already, as I notice that whenever a woman's responsibility for her own safety is brought up (especially by a man), the topic usually defaults to men needing to own up to their responsibility not to be the reason women even need to be safe.

This is your topic and you chose the title. But you will please notice that it has been addressed ten ways from Sunday that both men AND women need to be responsible for not making anyone feel unsafe.

[danielsa1775]

Originally Posted by 2mares

Who said women did not have the same rights in our society today? I think you misunderstood the comment. It was about men bring up,"well women wanted/have equal rights so they should XYZ, in her example have or be expected to have equal physical strength to men.

Never in my life have i heard anyone suggest this.

Originally Posted by 2mares

Actually, men do have equal rights in custody battles, 50-70% of men are granted custody WHEN THEY REQUEST IT. Perhaps more men should put in equal parenting time before the divorce.

I am 100% in favour or compulsory joint custody agreements like you have in some US states, these have not yet been introduced in Australia to my knowledge

Originally Posted by 2mares

Where is it you see gender quotas today? Perhaps you mean promoting equal opportunities.
You realize most men do not want jobs in childcare, or primary teaching as these are low-paying jobs
and nursing doesn't seem to appeal to many men. On 12% of licensed nurses are men yet that number has increased by ~59% in the past 10 years. As well most women do not want to be police officer's, military or miners.

It take it you forgot to add a question mark after the word opportunities?

Gender quotas are common in the some parts of the world. Norway currently has a quota of at least 40% females and 40% males for employees in public companies. The penalty for failing to abide by this quota is that companies will be forced to dissolve themselves! The good thing about this policy is it covers all companies regardless of industry, so weather it be construction or child care the quota still exists, - that is exactly what we should be doing.

We are not under that yet here in Australia, however where they do exist is for government construction contracts, if you want to build a hospital or train station etc, X% of the workers on site must be female (It varies by state). It often leads to delays and cost blow outs while hundreds of men are overlooked for jobs they could easily fill, and companies simply not employing men on apprenticeship/traineeships because the know they cannot get these contracts without X number of female employees.
In my state we once had a ridiculous situation where the state did not have enough police officers, while at the same time 100's of suitabily qualifed male ones were unemployed, to fill the self impossed gender quota in the department that runs the police force, they could not employ any of the men.

Does any of this sound good to you?

Originally Posted by 2mares

I'm not sure why you keep insinuating I am not aware of domestic violence against men. Just because I point out the facts on domestic violence against women? Or the fact men are physically stronger and violence against women results in more serious injury and death?

Well you actually replied to a post that was not directed to you at all. A slap accross the face by a women may not cause a man any long term serious injury - but its still domestic violence. Is there something wrong with saying that?

Originally Posted by 2mares

It is not my job to concentrate on dads doing a great job. This thread is about men's responsibility to make women feel safe. Start a thread on dads if you want to discuss that.

Nope but it may be in your and our interests to conertrate on it, if you promote fatherhood postivly and describe the positive aspects as normal, maybe more men will actually start engaging in it positively?

Id never start a thread about it however - the backlash would be horrible.

[2mares]

Originally Posted by tamajane

That's different from a safety issue. Men can be intimidating from their size and/or strength alone if they don't maintain boundaries, physically and behaviorally. I'm glad bullying was brought up earlier, that is what it is when someone pushes boundaries to intimidate, like they have to win by dominating. When you didn't even know you were a player in a game. Some people turn everything into a competition they have to win, and if there is any pushback some real anger can emerge. If a woman does this with me I can deal, if it's a man I don't feel comfortable at all. They know it too.

I guess I have never had that bullying experience from a man, but I see what you are saying.

[2mares]

Originally Posted by WaikikiWaves

Very seldomly have I seen a relationship fail because a woman felt unsafe in the way being talked about here. Unsafe because she feels intimidated by her man, or unsafe because she feels her man will just run away if someone attacks her.

What I have seen is women often feeling unsafe but for entirely different reasons. Unsafe in this sense means not secure in the relationship, because they didn't trust their man to be faithful, a good father, or didn't feel like they could count on them to solve a difficult problem, or just be a person they could lean on.

Since this thread was started by a man, ask yourself if you were someone else, would you want your present self around to help you in a difficult challenge. Are you someone that others can count on, in other words.

Lots of relationships fail due to domestic violence (Intimidation).

To answer your question, yes.
But the man who started this thread clarified "safe" and it does not sound like he meant being someone a woman can count on or help in a difficult challenge.:
"Do I have a responsibility to constantly adjust my movements, speech and gaze so as not to make a woman uncomfortable? Do I just "suck it up" every time a woman crosses the street as I approach, shifts nervously in an elevator as I enter or clutches her purse if I happen to be standing too close in her estimation? The problem with this is that feeling uncomfortable is completely subjective, especially when it comes to strangers dealing with strangers. Normal movements from one guy may appear to be creepy or intimidating coming from another guy. Should I have to walk on eggshells my entire life while dealing with women in the name of good manners? How do you think a man may start to feel when he is seen as more of a perennial threat than a human being going about his day? A common response to these questions tends to be along the lines of, "Well, don't blame women, rather blame the men who have made women be constantly on edge." What does this mean, precisely? Should I be made to absolve the sins of all the wayward men I have nothing to do with?"

[tamajane]

Originally Posted by DubbleT

This is your topic and you chose the title. But you will please notice that it has been addressed ten ways from Sunday that both men AND women need to be responsible for not making anyone feel unsafe.

It should just be understood that it will never be equal.

[2mares]

Originally Posted by danielsa1775

Never in my life have i heard anyone suggest this.

Keep reading in the relationship threads. It has been suggested quite a bit.

Originally Posted by danielsa1775

I am 100% in favour or compulsory joint custody agreements like you have in some US states, these have not yet been introduced in Australia to my knowledge
Gender quotas are common in the some parts of the world. Norway currently has a quota of at least 40% females and 40% males for employees in public companies. The penalty for failing to abide by this quota is that companies will be forced to dissolve themselves! The good thing about this policy is it covers all companies regardless of industry, so weather it be construction or child care the quota still exists, - that is exactly what we should be doing.

We are not under that yet here in Australia, however where they do exist is for government construction contracts, if you want to build a hospital or train station etc, X% of the workers on site must be female (It varies by state). It often leads to delays and cost blow outs while hundreds of men are overlooked for jobs they could easily fill, and companies simply not employing men on apprenticeship/traineeships because the know they cannot get these contracts without X number of female employees.
In my state we once had a ridiculous situation where the state did not have enough police officers, while at the same time 100's of suitabily qualifed male ones were unemployed, to fill the self impossed gender quota in the department that runs the police force, they could not employ any of the men.

Does any of this sound good to you?

Do you know why gender quotas are put in place? I’m sure like the USA there was widespread discrimination, here both racial and gender-based. The government had to step up to end discriminatory practices and ensure equal representation in the political arena. The US eventually did away with quotas.
No, it does not sound good to me that white male-controlled businesses had to be forced to stop discriminatory hiring practices to the detriment of white males and now actually discriminatory hiring practices targeting men. No one likes to be spanked and made to play fair.

Originally Posted by danielsa1775

Well you actually replied to a post that was not directed to you at all. A slap accross the face by a women may not cause a man any long term serious injury - but its still domestic violence. Is there something wrong with saying that?

Why do you think pointing out the fact that men cause much more physical injury and often death in domestic violence situations than women do as not being aware of domestic violence against men?
I pointed out it was the reason people often took it more seriously when they saw a man assaulting women than when they saw a woman assaulting a man. In which would you be more inclined to intervene, a child being attacked by a Pitbull or a chihuahua?

Originally Posted by danielsa1775

Nope but it may be in your and our interests to conertrate on it, if you promote fatherhood postivly and describe the positive aspects as normal, maybe more men will actually start engaging in it positively?
Id never start a thread about it however - the backlash would be horrible.

There have been such threads but generally the males will ultimately turn it around to blaming women for everything instead of concentrating on the positivity of fatherhood. Many of the female posters here have spoken of great fathers, great single fathers, and great stepfathers in their own lives. I have often spoken of my own son, my brother and the fathers I know who have custodial custody of their children.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Is there a line that won't be crossed to protect a woman?

What if she's drowning? or attacked by an animal? what about a female protester who is blocking the road and gets dragged to the side of the road? what about a woman changing a flat tire in the roadway? What about a teenage child hitting their mother? or what about a man yelling and verbally abusing a woman?

To what degree is it the mans responsibility to risk injury to protect a woman? from both emotional or physical attacks? especially a woman you don't know? What if the attack is justified or defensive?

Point is... how will you respond, men? and what is the expectations of women and society?

[Sonic_Spork]

Originally Posted by 2mares

I guess I have never had that bullying experience from a man, but I see what you are saying.

I received more overt expression of sexual interest from adult male strangers when I was a young teen, age 12-15, than I ever did as a legal adult. Guys on public transit, construction workers, men outside of Walmart, drunk friends of my Mom's boyfriend, men working at stores in the mall.

Now granted and I'll admit, as I got into the 15, 16 range, there were times...well, at least one time...that rather than being uncomfortable, I thought, "OK what can you do for me?" I had a sexual fling with a guy in his 20s who managed a Sbarro's Pizza at Potomac Mills Mall in VA. Because he told his employees to always give me free food, whatever I wanted. So I would bring my high school pals, at least one of whom I was also having sex with from time to time, and we'd all eat free because this bozo thought it was cool to hook up with a teenager. I wrecked him when I broke up with him. He kept coming to my house begging me to get engaged to him, bringing me flowers...I eventually told him I'd call the cops and he gave up.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, pal, I don't know what to tell ya. So long and thanks for all the carbs.

But I could always tell that the intent and desire and expectation of these men, especially when I was 12, 13 and still quite an ugly duckling, with bad teeth, hair, skin, no boobs... They were hoping to see me squirm. That was the kick they were looking for. No sane person would have looked at me then and thought, "hot!"

Another manifestation of the "bullying" thing... Sexually harassing women at their place of employment. I don't mean just gentle flirtation or asking for a date, I mean following/watching, touching, inappropriate comments. The guy knows that her income is on the line and she can't just leave or avoid him and he wants to see her uncomfortable. He is enjoying the feeling of power he gets from discarding boundaries and getting away with it. And then if she complains, "what? I wasn't doing anything wrong! She's overreacting. She liked it, wanted it, should take it as flattery, a compliment. God, I can't even EXIST in a world around women anymore!" followed by hostility. Disapproval and consequences trigger rage. And just like if a schoolyard bully gets in trouble with teacher, tantrums and playing the victim if he's called out about it.