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I guess the best way to phrase my question is, what good is marriage if you have to submerge your own dreams and hopes? I can understand the Cinderella Syndrome where the sole purpose of getting married is BEING married (as if that's a magical cure for every problem), but for the rest of the real world, if you have to give up what makes you feel alive, what is the purpose?
I realize marriage is essentially an archaic religious custom, and that most people take comfort in such customs. OK.
I also realize the whole idealized "perfect joining" concept is seductive to many. All right.
Now, someone in that thread (Ivory I believe) mentioned the 50% divorce rate, which I believe has a lot of controversy as to its accuracy - I think the stats were massaged the wrong way initially - but the rate is still UP there. So wouldn't that tell you something?
I don't buy the argument that each party has to make sacrifices to make a marriage work. Compromises, perhaps, but not sacrifices. I think that would lead to resentment, which leads to argument, which leads to divorce.
I also don't buy into the "two are stronger than one" concept. Two can be a liability as often as a benefit.
Many say "Oh, we were in love, so it's what you're supposed to do"...really? I must have missed that memo...
I think it's because, although you hear about other people who "gave up dreams" or did most of the "compromising," you don't think that could possibly be you. Not your love. Not Mr. or Ms. Wonderful.
And I'm sure it works from both sides.
It's also because we always feel we're special, different, and know all the traps ahead of time just by watching. Not so. Even the most fabulous, creative, wonderful people, and even the most selfless people, will experience the same issues that come up in a marriage, some by neither person's fault or design. I think it's what transpires between people--all the mega-emotion, experiencing deaths together, childbirth together, hard financial times, buying a house, losing a house--makes some people have a "heavy" feeling eventually toward the spouse, whether the spouse deserves it or not. Because all these "heavy" feelings are attached to the experiences with that spouse. And eventually...it just makes you tired.
We also sometimes become people even we don't like. There's nothing more horrifying than Fighting Against the (Wo)man as a teenager and realizing that you did something that made you the (Wo)man 20 years later. I think some people believe it's marriage or responsibilities in general that made them that way, and in some cases, to an extent, that can be true. Again, the spouse him or herself is not to blame...but the feeling of it is attached to the spouse.
And--I hate so much to say this, Phil--but I do feel it's the woman much more often than the man who "gives up" the bigger, more fun or more showy things than the man. Who quits a job, which used to make her feel like she was actually worth something, for the kids? The person who tends to make less money, and the person who is out of physical commission during birth recovery. Who does the majority of the housework? 75% of that among couples who both work still goes to the woman. Who has the sh*t detail so much of the time? The literally getting your hands grubby? Satisfying the baby because "You're so much better at it than I am!" or "She wants her mommy!" at all hours? Who gets to play video games all night to "blow off steam"...and who gets called "an incompetent mother" for clicking the power button on her computer? Again...there will be exceptions. But face it. This is the general rule. And the real irony there is that not only does the wife resent it enough to leave...but the husband is now "bored" enough with a woman who "just takes care of the kids and cooks all the time and doesn't want sex at midnight after doing the fourth load of dishes" to leave, too.
This is not to say men don't "give up dreams" too. Sometimes, a man will have huge dreams that can't be accomplished without, say, being away from his family a large portion of the time (like the old "I want to be a rock star!" dream), so he does in fact give them up. Or perhaps he'd like to be rich, and feels if only he weren't supporting a family, he would be. Or maybe he wanted to jet-set and again, marriage can get in the way of that. At the beginning of the marriage, he either thought he'd be able to accomplish those anyway (maybe alongside the wife), or he thought he loved the wife more than the dreams...but later doesn't feel that way any more.
Now, it doesn't always work that way. For some people, the experiences make them stronger as a couple, not weaker. And some couples, hopefully more and more, have a more equal relationship than the one escribed above. That's the ideal. But that wasn't what your question was--so I answered as far as my understanding of your question.
ETA: Oh, as far as "what *good*" marriage is...well, it can be a lot of good. Druing our younger, more hyper "I want to be all over another physical being" years, someone is there. We do share, rather than going alone, some of life's more dramatic moments. In good relationships, the good of marriage is that you have a best friend right there who is also great in the sack. And what can be bad about that? It's good economically. It is also way, way easier to raise children--and yes, many men want children (I know you have them, Phil, so you understand this)--when there are two people. I can vouch for that, having done both. Marriage also builds blocks of one's life; you're stepping along in tune with someone else. So those are the good parts, but again, only really in a good marriage.
There are a lot of practical benefits to marriage. It's the best way to provide a stable environment for raising children. It has many economic benefits from sharing expenses, economy in numbers if you will. I think it has a lot of value to society as a whole and this is why it was created. Nearly every society / culture on earth has some sort of marriage tradition.
On a more personal note, I think if it's done right, it can lead to a more mature type of love. One where the partners know and accept each other completely and live in the moment together. I think of both pairs of my grandparents, because they were the last couples I knew who demonstrated this type of love.
if a person feeks they are giving something up to get married then they are getting married for the wrong reason, you marry to share your life and dreams with someone you love and want to spend your life with.
As far as marriage being essentially an archaic religious custom, well thats one way people play down the commitment of marriage and if thats how they feel they shouldn't get married, this is part of the problem with high divorce rates.
"Each party has to make sacrifices to make a marriage work", it's not usually to make the marriage work but normally for a family to work, you can't be selfish when raising a family, sometimes you may have to give up a little something for their benifit, theres nothing wrong with that.
Marriage isn't for everyone, nobody forces you to do it, the problem is that people jump in to it and at the first sign of trouble they jump out, it's not a TV show, it's real life.
I've been married 30 years this month, we haven't givin up anything in life, we have enhanced each others lives, we are stronger as 2 than seperate and it never had anything to do with customs, it had to do with love for each other and wanting to spend the rest of our lives together.
I agree totally with the first 4 paragraphs. As to 75% of the drudgery going to the woman - that's both a failure to assume an equal load by the male and a failure to expect it by the female, IMO. Giving up a career...well, back in "the day", women didn't HAVE careers, right? They literally WERE baby machines and 24/7 housekeepers.
So why should we expect an antiquated model like marriage to change with the times?
As for both men and women giving up their dreams - why? Why would they give up their dream to get married? I made my dream come true long before I even considered getting married - I'd done everything I wanted to do, left no cute little stone unturned in my path and generally got a lot of the craziness and wildness out of my system before ever I considered doing that perp walk down the church aisle.
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ETA: Oh, as far as "what *good*" marriage is...well, it can be a lot of good. Druing our younger, more hyper "I want to be all over another physical being" years, someone is there.
They were always there for me before I got married, too. So Strike 1...
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We do share, rather than going alone, some of life's more dramatic moments.
I guess sharing such moments has its place, but I can well remember several that I'd wish I'd been alone for...so, Ball 1.
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In good relationships, the good of marriage is that you have a best friend right there who is also great in the sack. And what can be bad about that?
Again, I had that just by living with a gal. Sorry, luv - Strike 2...
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It's good economically.
Questionable. IF you have two incomes and no kids (DINKs, I believe they call them), then you might salt some money away. But with more money comes more dreams, more debt, more crushing overhead, more things you think you can't live without...the Ump says Ball 2.
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It is also way, way easier to raise children--and yes, many men want children (I know you have them, Phil, so you understand this)--when there are two people. I can vouch for that, having done both.
Totally agree. Ball 3...
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Marriage also builds blocks of one's life; you're stepping along in tune with someone else.
Meh...maybe it's just me that has the monk gene. Ball 4 - walk that Lady to first base!
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So those are the good parts, but again, only really in a good marriage.
But does the marriage create those good parts, or are they there even without the license? Why can't they be experienced by simply shacking up with your boo?
I guess the best way to phrase my question is, what good is marriage if you have to submerge your own dreams and hopes? I can understand the Cinderella Syndrome where the sole purpose of getting married is BEING married (as if that's a magical cure for every problem), but for the rest of the real world, if you have to give up what makes you feel alive, what is the purpose?
I realize marriage is essentially an archaic religious custom, and that most people take comfort in such customs. OK.
I also realize the whole idealized "perfect joining" concept is seductive to many. All right.
Now, someone in that thread (Ivory I believe) mentioned the 50% divorce rate, which I believe has a lot of controversy as to its accuracy - I think the stats were massaged the wrong way initially - but the rate is still UP there. So wouldn't that tell you something?
I don't buy the argument that each party has to make sacrifices to make a marriage work. Compromises, perhaps, but not sacrifices. I think that would lead to resentment, which leads to argument, which leads to divorce.
I also don't buy into the "two are stronger than one" concept. Two can be a liability as often as a benefit.
Many say "Oh, we were in love, so it's what you're supposed to do"...really? I must have missed that memo...
So what's with marriage?
very well put. very healthy thinking.
when i get some rep dots its yours.
I guess the best way to phrase my question is, what good is marriage if you have to submerge your own dreams and hopes? I can understand the Cinderella Syndrome where the sole purpose of getting married is BEING married (as if that's a magical cure for every problem), but for the rest of the real world, if you have to give up what makes you feel alive, what is the purpose?
I realize marriage is essentially an archaic religious custom, and that most people take comfort in such customs. OK.
I also realize the whole idealized "perfect joining" concept is seductive to many. All right.
Now, someone in that thread (Ivory I believe) mentioned the 50% divorce rate, which I believe has a lot of controversy as to its accuracy - I think the stats were massaged the wrong way initially - but the rate is still UP there. So wouldn't that tell you something?
I don't buy the argument that each party has to make sacrifices to make a marriage work. Compromises, perhaps, but not sacrifices. I think that would lead to resentment, which leads to argument, which leads to divorce.
I also don't buy into the "two are stronger than one" concept. Two can be a liability as often as a benefit.
Many say "Oh, we were in love, so it's what you're supposed to do"...really? I must have missed that memo...
So what's with marriage?
When done well, and for the right reasons, between two people who truly love one another it is simply exquisite beyond words of explanation I could share here. For those who have experienced it you know what I mean, for those who haven't I can only say I hope that you will.
(shrug) Well, you asked for reasons; I didn't say they were all the right reasons, or that they were or weren't antiquated, or that nobody could receive those benefits without marriage. I was just trying to answer your question with some reasons, since you asked.
If you don't need or want marriage, that's 100% perfect for you, and there is no need to change a thing...I have never been one to push anyone on the issue of marriage. Some do it; some don't and the world keeps going 'round.
I was trying to convince you of nothing; I thought you were honestly asking. If you already feel that marriage is unnecessary, then you do, and if I had known that I would have answered differently.
And if, on the other hand, you wish to convince *all* (or most) people that marriage truly is unnecessary, then I can tell you right now: Some people, for reasons they can't explain, truly don't get such experiences without another person right there, in the context of marriage. Perhaps they've decided this (subconsciously) in order to specifically have that experience of a lifetime alongside one person, and this is the way (marriage) that that can be accomplished. Who knows why? We're all different. Some people's journey involves a marriage. Some people, OTOH, have a different journey. And there you have it.
I honestly do not get the point in marriage. Ok I understand the legal benefits of it but that is not why people get married. People get married because it is some sort of sign of commitment.
I do not know why marriage is the only way for a person to show commitment. Too many times people break off relationships because the other would not put a ring on their finger. A ring on the finger and a ceremony will not make someone more or less committed to you. To me if someone is loving and always there then they are committed.
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It's good economically. It is also way, way easier to raise children--and yes, many men want children (I know you have them, Phil, so you understand this)--when there are two people. I can vouch for that, having done both. Marriage also builds blocks of one's life; you're stepping along in tune with someone else. So those are the good parts, but again, only really in a good marriage.
So Strike 1...
