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I'd like to know what is meant by suppression of men? I know there is talk of toxic masculinity and such but what does that really mean. Is it about bad habits like "man spreading" or aggressive approaches and that type of behavior? If I were a guy I think I'd agree with the feminists about that but it doesn't represent most men, I don't think, and isn't masculine just because it's mostly men who do it.
I'd like to know what is meant by suppression of men? I know there is talk of toxic masculinity and such but what does that really mean. Is it about bad habits like "man spreading" or aggressive approaches and that type of behavior? If I were a guy I think I'd agree with the feminists about that but it doesn't represent most men, I don't think, and isn't masculine just because it's mostly men who do it.
That's the problem, there's not a good agreement on what it "means."
The feminists and social justice types who use it most, understand it to mean systems of enforcing a bunch of gender role limitations on men. Everything from how all-male groups feel pressured to speak and act towards/about women, excessive homophobia about gay men, bullying behaviors, punishing expression of a full range of emotions (especially any that appear "weak") and so forth. The whole point was to try to tell men, "hey, you are being really unkind to boys and it's hindering their ability to have healthy relationships and full emotional lives. Don't you want better for yourselves and for them?" It was meant to challenge the idea that if you want to be a real man, you've got to be stoic and a bully. And to address the fact that so many men these days end up so isolated, trying to get a romantic partner to be their everything to the exclusion of other friendships...to a point that a.) If they struggle in that area, they wind up with no real support network in life, and b.) Even if they marry, they risk being cut off, isolated and alone, if the wife dies or there is a divorce or something. It was the current evolution of the feminist movement taking a step towards humanism and pointing out that ultra-strict "traditional gender roles" really deprive everyone of freedoms and their ability to get needs met.
But evidently a lot of men decided to hear the words, "toxic masculinity" and say that this is a left leaning, feminist society trying to feminize men, attack masculinity as toxic in its entirety, and relegate the male gender to some sort of second class citizenship. And it should surprise no one that tons of media, from mainstream right leaning news outlets to your typical outrage-squawk on Youtube, have happily jumped on the, "yeah, those people just hate you! Hate them back!" bandwagon.
I also think that some of the reflex to defensiveness from men, can come in when one points out that some men they might have lionized as admirable in the past have been "problematic" (sorry, I do find these lefty buzzwords pretty annoying.) Like I grew up with Harrison Ford playing all these roles of hero in various films, right? But some of the ways he is scripted to interact with female leads and love interests is very much of the "You say you hate me but you'll inevitably want me, I know better than you so I'm just gonna grab and smooch on you and it'll be cute when you smack me now, but you really know you like it..." variety and boy is it hard to get the message across that "no means no" when Hollywood is putting out all of these models for how romantic interactions work. But I think that boys and men need their heroes, their characters and role models in history and fiction and life. The "strong man to rally to" that was mentioned upthread. A criticism of one of their heroes, to say nothing of an entire trope oft-repeated by many of them...may be seen as an attack on their identity on some level. But that's just a theory I have, I could be full of crap. I have never been inside the mind of a man, I only know a lot of them.
Its also very obvious to me you and I have very different ideas about the Manosphere is as well, Chris Williamson and Richard Reeves are part of the Manosphere, as far as i am concerned, as is anyone who actually promotes a positive mindset in men, or points out that men have problems,
I agree we are categorizing people differently, I try to categorize people based upon how I think they would actually categorize themselves. The reason I am not categorizing say Richard Reeves or Chris Williamson as part of the manosphere is I haven't seen any evidence to make me think either of these guys has identified themselves as part of this subculture.
I don't really care for the term 'toxic masculinity', it tends to add more heat and less light to conversations where it is introduced. At one time it might have a concrete meaning among academics, but modernly in practice it tends to be used to as a slur to bash people and causes a given speaker doesn't like.
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Originally Posted by shelato
I don't really care for the term 'toxic masculinity', it tends to add more heat and less light to conversations where it is introduced. At one time it might have a concrete meaning among academics, but modernly in practice it tends to be used to as a slur to bash people and causes a given speaker doesn't like.
You are right. It is used to insult men. The funny thing is you ask some that use the term what it means and they don’t know.
I'd like to know what is meant by suppression of men? I know there is talk of toxic masculinity and such but what does that really mean. Is it about bad habits like "man spreading" or aggressive approaches and that type of behavior? If I were a guy I think I'd agree with the feminists about that but it doesn't represent most men, I don't think, and isn't masculine just because it's mostly men who do it.
I don't think men are being oppressed by women. The US has never had a female president, we have had one female speaker of the house, but she's no longer in that role, there has never been a female Senate majority leader, there are 2 females and 7 males on the Supreme Court. So it's tough for me to say women are oppressing men and I suspect these are the stats and men a lot of feminists have in mind when they talk about male privilege.
But I do think men especially on the bottom half of the income distribution are feeling disempowered. Real incomes are flat or down, the blue collar factory jobs these guys used to get have gone away due to automation/globalization. These guys aren't experiencing their own lives as especially privileged and these guys tend to resent being lectured about how they are so privileged because they are male. The political system isn't really responding to their needs.
Why are so many guys failing behind? Why are colleges close to 60/40 women to men?
I think the biggest reasons are that men aren't women, but we are being treated like we are the same. Chronologically we age at the same rate, but biologically women develop much faster. Little girls develop the hand eye coordination to tie their shoes faster. Girls enter into puberty earlier and their prefrontal cortex develops 3 years earlier than men. So maybe we start elementary school a year later for boys and maybe have a gap year or two before starting college?
Brain development impacts how well you do in school. I think this is why girls are doing so much better in high school and college.
As small children little boys tend to be more antsy and a bit more wild than small girls, so they probably need more frequent and longer recess but in an attempt make more kids better prepared for college we toughened standards and cut back on recess. That likely has helped girls succeed but also caused a dramatic increase in the number of little boys being put on meds for hyperactivity. I suspect if we brought back more recess, more little boys would need less meds and do better in school.
Lastly probably not everyone is college material, but we have also gotten rid of vocational ed, the various shop classes that used to be available to boys have gone away. In Germany, they have extensive apprentice programs for people who aren't going to college, maybe we could do something like that.
I am not saying that women are intentionally trying to hold down men, but I do think the issues of lower half of the income distribution of males are being ignored by the political process and these guys are feeling disempowered. Fentanyl, meth, the manosphere, I think are all unsuccessful ways guys are coping with feeling disempowered.
A difficulty we can have in this conversation is what exactly we are talking about in terms of "suppression." I mean, especially when you plonk it down in a thread about "traditional vs. modern WOMEN" as partners...
You have the very reasonable things about not assuming the worst of men when it comes to interactions with children...insofar as employment in daycare, being out with their own kids in the world, or family court in divorce cases. Those are solid and valid concerns.
When it comes to the interpretations of "toxic masculinity" or "patriarchy"... I mean, the statements you make here sound like "if men do not get their way, they will lash out violently, it's always been that way and so the world needs to cater to them to avoid that. Toxic or not, it's how things are." I don't think that anyone needs to accept that. I don't believe that society is required to negotiate with terrorists.
But if you were to consider instead, how can we seek to define and promote the healthiest examples of masculinity, then we could be onto something. I would be able to agree that if a lot of young men are getting a whole lot of "do not be this way!" with no accompanying guidance on how they ARE supposed to act, that would be confusing and may come off as a personal attack rather than anything constructive. I have noticed that boys and men seem to need "heroes" and role models. I don't speak for my gender here, only for myself, but it isn't something I've ever needed or had. I also do not respect authority or "rally" behind anyone. So all of that...I don't much get it. But I think that perhaps if we were to try an exercise, any time you hear anyone refer to toxic masculinity or patriarchy and you begin to feel a way about it, ask them to please name a living example of healthy masculinity. Get that person off THEIR outrage train and ask them to consider and remember the good of men.
Might be an interesting strategy, no? And there have been enough prominent good men in the world I can't see most people struggling to do this.
I'm not sure if men who are angry at women would largely be able to do the same thing, but.../shrug...
Finally though...women standing up and participating fully in society, getting educated, having successful careers, making our own decisions and living our lives independently is not in any way, shape or form "suppression" of men. And while I doubt you were trying to say it was, a lot of men in the manosphere think that this is the problem. But I really do not believe that women should have to make ourselves small so that men can feel big. Given your marriage dynamic, I doubt if you feel that way either.
I think i said feeling of Supression, or at least that is what I am meant to say, you do not actaully have to be surprssed to feel surpressed.
As for this 'When it comes to the interpretations of "toxic masculinity" or "patriarchy"... I mean, the statements you make here sound like "if men do not get their way, they will lash out violently,
I dont interprete it that way at all. Even with these violent revolutions I discussed for historical context, the revolutions themselves were pretty much the last straw following years of failed negotations that got nowhere.
A lot of guys hate terms like Toxic Mascuality - (Interpreted as Men are Toxic), Rape Culture (Interpreted that rape is some how acceptable), my most hated one is mansplaining (you cant have an opinion), and then putting up with things like Domestic Violence/rape is common and its a male problem (Am I been accused of guilt for of a hideous crime, when i am totally innocent?) etc etc.
When you put all this together and its on reapeate for years on end, a few guys are simply going to decide they have had enough and lash out. Its not because they are not getting there own way - but because all the above makes them feel supressed unheard and unwanted.
I think the rest has been covered quite will by the other posters, However I will say that maybe its time to enforce gender quotas in education, start promoting fatherhood in a very positive light and generally promote the role men can have anything to do with the raising of children? Boys need good men around them to become good men. Not saying that women are bad at the job, its just that boys may relate to other men better, and the natural teaching/dicipline of men may simply more suited to raising good well rounded men.
My father was as traditional as the come, he was Storic, Assertive, Competative, Logical, Strong (Both Physcially and Mentally) Took Risks, Worked way too hard outside the house to be of much use in it, I cant recall ever huging or kissing my dad unitl the day i went to a hospital and watched him die. What he did however was raise two very well rounded good men, and in turn he had two boys who loved him to bits, in our own special male kind of way.
I wonder what would happen if you asked the women here if they prefer traditional to modern men and listed the bolded above as the traditional attributues? Behaviours which these days are regulalary listed as toxic.
Last edited by danielsa1775; 11-20-2023 at 03:10 PM..
Odd, that. The number of secretaries/admin assistants in the workplace has decreased significantly in the past twenty years i.e. around 70%, particularly relative to tech (and continues to do so).
That said, I’m curious as to your point relative to the thread; are you (nonsensically) suggesting women who are more ‘traditionally-minded’ or ‘feminine’ than their counterparts are more likely to tolerate cheating, as a whole, particularly in this day and age?
The rich wives may be more willing to say: "She's just getting the bone, without getting the meat" and roll with it. (With due credit to whoever sang that originally).
I don't think men are being oppressed by women. The US has never had a female president, we have had one female speaker of the house, but she's no longer in that role, there has never been a female Senate majority leader, there are 2 females and 7 males on the Supreme Court. So it's tough for me to say women are oppressing men and I suspect these are the stats and men a lot of feminists have in mind when they talk about male privilege.
But I do think men especially on the bottom half of the income distribution are feeling disempowered. Real incomes are flat or down, the blue collar factory jobs these guys used to get have gone away due to automation/globalization. These guys aren't experiencing their own lives as especially privileged and these guys tend to resent being lectured about how they are so privileged because they are male. The political system isn't really responding to their needs.
Why are so many guys failing behind? Why are colleges close to 60/40 women to men?
I think the biggest reasons are that men aren't women, but we are being treated like we are the same. Chronologically we age at the same rate, but biologically women develop much faster. Little girls develop the hand eye coordination to tie their shoes faster. Girls enter into puberty earlier and their prefrontal cortex develops 3 years earlier than men. So maybe we start elementary school a year later for boys and maybe have a gap year or two before starting college?
Brain development impacts how well you do in school. I think this is why girls are doing so much better in high school and college.
As small children little boys tend to be more antsy and a bit more wild than small girls, so they probably need more frequent and longer recess but in an attempt make more kids better prepared for college we toughened standards and cut back on recess. That likely has helped girls succeed but also caused a dramatic increase in the number of little boys being put on meds for hyperactivity. I suspect if we brought back more recess, more little boys would need less meds and do better in school.
Lastly probably not everyone is college material, but we have also gotten rid of vocational ed, the various shop classes that used to be available to boys have gone away. In Germany, they have extensive apprentice programs for people who aren't going to college, maybe we could do something like that.
I am not saying that women are intentionally trying to hold down men, but I do think the issues of lower half of the income distribution of males are being ignored by the political process and these guys are feeling disempowered. Fentanyl, meth, the manosphere, I think are all unsuccessful ways guys are coping with feeling disempowered.
You realize everything you described women already experienced? Being suppressed in school, being omitted from courses and programs.
Lastly probably not everyone is college material, but we have also gotten rid of vocational ed, the various shop classes that used to be available to boys have gone away. In Germany, they have extensive apprentice programs for people who aren't going to college, maybe we could do something like that.
But we haven't, at least not where I live.
Shop classes are still in the high school even, and vo-tech is going strong.
Apprentice programs are still in existence also, with the various unions in the area.
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