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There is no culture or society on earth in which men stay home nurturing children while women go out and bring home the bacon. In any appreciable numbers.
Maybe that’s why most married couples assume that the wife will do the lion’s share of child care responsibilities.
Just a wild guess.
No there is not because things were different when cultures and societies were formed. There was no reliable BC, no formula, no bottles, no childcare. Survival was based mostly on physical strength and there was a necessity for each to fulfill particular roles. Laws also separated people from protections and opportunities to keep them in their place according to class, race, sex, and religion even when did not apply.
Society has changed, our lives have changed due to advancements so that history is irrelevant to how we do things today. But yes, I agree that is why it is assumed that the wife do the lions share of childcare and why we assume each should be responsible for particular responsibilities. Many of our antiquated believes are still in play today.
The larger point is that some of these choices were and are often made from necessity and lack of options, not preference. As a society we can ask ourselves that if marriage and family are women's highest aims, why do so many women not want that? Why did they fight for different choices? Why do so many women want spouses who take more of a role in childcare or domestic labor? Why do many women not want to get married or have children at all? If it's such an inherent trait, women wouldn't have to be convinced that it's all that they should want and that they should feel bad about themselves if they don't.
How often is this really the case? Young single women are now much better educated then young single men and young single women with no kids make more money than young single men with no kids. There are probably 20+ birth control options for women. If birth control doesn't work, there's abortion and abortion is solely a woman's decision, so if she doesn't want a kid, she can terminate it, and never tell the father.
The women who don't want to have kids don't have to have them. There are plenty of women never get married nor have kids or are married for a short time once and decide to never remarry because marriage wasn't for them. It has never been easier to get divorced than today.
Maybe 50 years ago, you were making a valid argument, that women lacked agency in their lives. But modernly the women who are staying at home raising kids are doing it because they want to and were fortunate enough to find a guy able to support them.
The only women I know who are stay at home moms are wealthy. Marriage is an act reserved mostly for the wealthy and well educated.The poor don't marry the father of their kids. They are on welfare. So it's really tough for me to think of stay at home mom's as some how oppressed.
Most women will change from modern back to traditional. The roles are all effed up and unfair.
Why should a modern woman still be expected to have kids, nurture kids, while still go to work, and perform house duties?
A modern woman benefits the man more than the woman. Some women will feel liberated, they can get a good paying job just like a man and no downside. But there is a very expensive price.
Majority of women once they hit 35 will wonder should they settle down have a kid. If they decide to have a kid and figure they don't need a man. Then that's fine, you have kids be the 2-in-1 parent while you look at some other happy traditional couples that share the parenting and finances.
Most modern women that became managers or high level position regret not having a traditional role where they can just take a lesser paying job. Less pressure, have children, cook, and let the man deal with the financial burden. During a divorce the lesser paid husband can also take 50% of her paycheck while she still has to deal with the children while the ex-husband can easily find a young woman and start a new family.
When you married did you and your fiancée discuss and decide which one of you would take time off when you had children?
I’ve never been married, although I’m currently involved in a committed relationship in which we live together; I’ve dated a great deal and had several long-term, serious (and moderately so) relationships along the way, including an engagement long ago. Relative to those women (as well as female friends), yes - the majority have expressed a desire to stay home with a baby for awhile. I mentioned this previously, per the thread, regarding the type of professional, modern (and traditionally feminine) women I’ve usually dated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Did you discuss expectations of employment, salaries, if one would work or both, future goals?
I’ve never discussed my salary (or theirs) while dating, and it’s always assumed we’d both continue working. That said, when the discussion of kids (or not) inevitably enters the picture, most women are very open as to how they feel on the subject (and the majority expressed interest in temporarily staying home with a baby).
I have found the few who had no desire to stay home beyond a short maternity leave (and were more concerned with opportunities they’d miss at work) were less enthusiastic about having kids, as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Was this on your first date, after dating a year? Did you discuss who would do the cooking or cleaning, laundry, mow the yard, take the vehicles in for service?
First date? That’s hilarious; usually folks have enough common sense to understand timing/applicability a bit better. Most professional/modern folks live together prior to marriage and kids so they can see for themselves how it plays out. That said, we have a housekeeper; however, we do split various household tasks, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
You never did answer my question about you being will to quit work for a year or two in order to have a child and if not why even have one.
I specifically stated that at this point in my life (late 40’s), I’d only father a child if the woman in my life was ready/wanting to stay home temporarily. I’d want to provide that for her (and my baby), as I wouldn’t want to send a baby (less than a year old, generally speaking) to daycare; it would be less stressful for all of us. If she isn’t all that into it (or her career is more important), it would make more sense for us not to have a kid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
IMO, you see things in absolutes. That you know everything about your mate before marriage and that they will never change and that if someone does something it must be because they happily chose to do it with not extenuating circumstances at play. If this were so there would not be many divorces.
I think you are an absolutist thinker in terms of the past and outdated gender roles, as if there’s no solution in the modern world (or it isn’t up to the couple). No one can force you to accept their way of thinking or live your life accordingly; where’s the accountability?
As such, I’m speaking to giving yourself the best opportunity possible for a healthy, happy relationship and that involves aligning with each other relative to kids (or not), marriage (or not), religion/atheism, femininity/masculinity and how to manage finances and the household.
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 12-06-2023 at 02:02 PM..
Reason: typo
How often is this really the case? Young single women are now much better educated then young single men and young single women with no kids make more money than young single men with no kids. There are probably 20+ birth control options for women. If birth control doesn't work, there's abortion and abortion is solely a woman's decision, so if she doesn't want a kid, she can terminate it, and never tell the father.
The women who don't want to have kids don't have to have them. There are plenty of women never get married nor have kids or are married for a short time once and decide to never remarry because marriage wasn't for them. It has never been easier to get divorced than today.
Maybe 50 years ago, you were making a valid argument, that women lacked agency in their lives. But modernly the women who are staying at home raising kids are doing it because they want to and were fortunate enough to find a guy able to support them.
The only women I know who are stay at home moms are wealthy. Marriage is an act reserved mostly for the wealthy and well educated.The poor don't marry the father of their kids. They are on welfare. So it's really tough for me to think of stay at home mom's as some how oppressed.
Wait did you just contradict your self.
you ask how often is it the case (choices often made from necessity and lack of options).
then go on to say SAHMs are mostly wealthy.
I dont think anyone said SAHMs are oppressed.
A point some are missing in this is that life is not black and white. You state women who don't want kids don't have them, yet ~45% of all pregnancies are unplanned. Abortion is not always an option. But that is not the point. There is a difference in want and willing to. Don't assume every woman who left her job to take care of the kids did so because that is what she wanted/wants or planned.
Many women want their husbands to put in the same effort, reduce their working hours, take leave time for child illnesses, appointments and daycare closures, but their husbands don't or wont. Most of them don't end the marriage over it though, they suck it up and do what has to be done.
And no one is saying all working or professional mothers want to get back to work or that plenty women dont want to be a SAH, temporarily or long term.
I’ve never been married, although I’m currently involved in a committed relationship in which we live together; I’ve dated a great deal and had several long-term, serious (and moderately so) relationships along the way, including an engagement long ago. Relative to those women (as well as female friends), yes - the majority have expressed a desire to stay home with a baby for awhile. I mentioned this previously, per the thread, regarding the type of professional, modern (and traditionally feminine) women I’ve usually dated.
I’ve never discussed my salary (or theirs) while dating, and it’s always assumed we’d both continue working. That said, when the discussion of kids (or not) inevitably enters the picture, most women are very open as to how they feel on the subject (and the majority expressed interest in temporarily staying home with a baby).
I have found the few who had no desire to stay home beyond a short maternity leave (and were more concerned with opportunities they’d miss at work) were less enthusiastic about having kids, as a whole.
First date? That’s hilarious; usually folks have enough common sense to understand timing/applicability a bit better. Most professional/modern folks live together prior to marriage and kids so they can see for themselves how it plays out. That said, we have a housekeeper; however, we do split various household tasks, of course.
I specifically stated that at this point in my life (late 40’s), I’d only father a child if the woman in my life was ready/wanting to stay home temporarily. I’d want to provide that for her (and my baby), as I wouldn’t want to send a baby (less than a year old, generally speaking) to daycare; it would be less stressful for all of us. If she isn’t all that into it (or her career is more important), it would make more sense for us not to have a kid.
I think you are an absolutist thinker in terms of the past and outdated gender roles, as if there’s no solution in the modern world (or it isn’t up to the couple). No one can force you to accept their way of thinking or live your life accordingly; where’s the accountability?
As such, I’m speaking to giving yourself the best opportunity possible for a healthy, happy relationship and that involves aligning with each other relative to kids (or not), marriage (or not), religion/atheism, femininity/masculinity and how to manage finances and the household.
All this tells me is that you have no experience in what is said or not said prior to marriage and what actually happen after marriage the theoretical becomes reality.
This has nothing to do with the past other than there were more defined gender roles in the past. I’m speaking of present-day relationships. Yes, most couples want a happy, healthy relationship. My only point was that often enough in relationships after the courtship and honeymoon are over those things don’t align. Not all women that are leaving their jobs to care for kids are doing it because they want to, they are doing it out of necessity and one factor in that necessity is the antiquated idea that it must be the mother that makes that sacrifice.
Apparently you dont accept that as a fact of life and thats ok. No need to discuss it further.
All this tells me is that you have no experience in what is said or not said prior to marriage and what actually happen after marriage the theoretical becomes reality.
Really? I consider this another antiquated opinion from you. One need not be married to understand/have experience in long-term committed relationships or the serious discussions/compromises (or red flags) relative to such. When you live with them, you experience the reality prior to marriage or having kids; it’s not rocket science. That’s a modern approach, from my perspective, and it is extremely common. In fact, one’s personal experience (relative to romantic, personal and professional relationships) is certainly more relevant than you speaking to folks, as a whole, or using your ‘friends’ as examples (as if you can truly know what goes on in another’s relationship, particularly sans any bias).
That said, this simplistic notion that a woman is either traditional or modern, per the thread, is nothing short of ridiculous; most modern women are a bit traditional in terms of a baby (to a various degree, if they plan to have kids). They still are the ones to get pregnant and experience a bond relative to such (and often breastfeed) i.e. some things haven’t changed while, obviously, much has as well. It does not negate choice in the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
No need to discuss it further.
We’re in agreement on this! :-)
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 12-06-2023 at 04:07 PM..
Wait did you just contradict your self.
you ask how often is it the case (choices often made from necessity and lack of options).
then go on to say SAHMs are mostly wealthy.
I dont think anyone said SAHMs are oppressed.
A point some are missing in this is that life is not black and white. You state women who don't want kids don't have them, yet ~45% of all pregnancies are unplanned. Abortion is not always an option. But that is not the point. There is a difference in want and willing to. Don't assume every woman who left her job to take care of the kids did so because that is what she wanted/wants or planned.
Many women want their husbands to put in the same effort, reduce their working hours, take leave time for child illnesses, appointments and daycare closures, but their husbands don't or wont. Most of them don't end the marriage over it though, they suck it up and do what has to be done.
And no one is saying all working or professional mothers want to get back to work or that plenty women dont want to be a SAH, temporarily or long term.
Unplanned doesn't mean unwanted. Any woman who doesn't want a kid doesn't have to have a kid. Abortion is a confidential decision where women have the exclusive legal right to decide and women have no legal obligation to tell the father of this pregnancy. The choice is hers alone to make. Guys have absolutely no say here at all, unless a woman actively chooses to give this guy a say in this decision. Abortion by mail pills are legal nationwide, so this claim abortion is not available to women is just a claim I don't buy.
So who has exclusive final decision on having a kid? Women. Women have complete agency here on the decision to not have kids.
Marriage is rapidly becoming just for the people who went to college and being a stay at home Mom is a small subset of that group reserved for the most privileged and wealthy.
One of the clearest signs of privilege in America is whether you were brought up in a two parent family. The privilege deficit is in the families where the father of the kids is not involved in the family.
Unplanned doesn't mean unwanted. Any woman who doesn't want a kid doesn't have to have a kid. Abortion is a confidential decision where women have the exclusive legal right to decide and women have no legal obligation to tell the father of this pregnancy. The choice is hers alone to make. Guys have absolutely no say here at all, unless a woman actively chooses to give this guy a say in this decision. Abortion by mail pills are legal nationwide, so this claim abortion is not available to women is just a claim I don't buy.
Have you not been watching the news? Roe v. Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court. There are near-total abortion bans in 24 states since 2022. Mifepristone is banned in these states as well Abortion is not an easy and accessible option for a lot of American women. Women who don't want to be pregnant are making different decisions than they were even just 5 years ago.
Last edited by fleetiebelle; 12-06-2023 at 04:09 PM..
Unplanned doesn't mean unwanted. Any woman who doesn't want a kid doesn't have to have a kid. Abortion is a confidential decision where women have the exclusive legal right to decide and women have no legal obligation to tell the father of this pregnancy. The choice is hers alone to make. Guys have absolutely no say here at all, unless a woman actively chooses to give this guy a say in this decision. Abortion by mail pills are legal nationwide, so this claim abortion is not available to women is just a claim I don't buy.
So who has exclusive final decision on having a kid? Women. Women have complete agency here on the decision to not have kids.
Marriage is rapidly becoming just for the people who went to college and being a stay at home Mom is a small subset of that group reserved for the most privileged and wealthy.
One of the clearest signs of privilege in America is whether you were brought up in a two parent family. The privilege deficit is in the families where the father of the kids is not involved in the family.
Again Dobbs.
But its not about deciding to have a child or not. It is about being in agreement and being satisfied with the division of childcare (after the child is actually born) in a relationship whatever that may be.
Marriage is not rapidly becoming just for those with college degrees just because more college educated adults marry by a margin of 12%. College-educated adults are more likely to be married than less-educated adults. Among those who were ages 25 and older in 2014, 65% of those with a bachelor’s degree or more were married, compared with 53% of adults with less education, according to a Pew Research Center analysis.
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