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Even recently I have seen those 'man on the street' interviews where somebody is asking random people on the sidewalk a question. Females when asked for their requirements of a mate, routinely the first thing from their mouth is a set minimum income [ie, six figures, seven figures].
It certainly sounds like this generation of females is focused on wealthy men.
I've seen them. Sad actually
I actually don't really agree with those interviews. I'm convinced they edit only the ones that make women to be gold diggers. I don't believe most women are gold diggers. What I do believe is that a man who makes more money and is financially stable generally has the same attributes that women in general find more attractive. It is a higher priority for women than it is for men.
I think today younger generations of women are even asking for more.... because their earning potential is rising and even equaling men. So their expectations of a man's minimum income are also rising.
I give you credit for staying in the marriage. It is more than I could have done. Believe me I understand about spouses not upholding their end of the bargain.
It took a lot to get to the point that things just work today. It would seem like credit if I had a choice. Remember, I'm the one who would move out of my home and lose daily fatherly interaction with my children. So not only did I not get my chance to be home raising our 2nd child but I would be even more absent from their lives. So before someone suggests that maybe I can use the court system to fight for more time or even custody? She is a good mother and her field of expertise is in child development with a specialty in ADHD and autistic children. No way I could convince a judge that they would be better off living with me. I doubt my saying she has been a neglectful wife would get any good standing.
I actually don't really agree with those interviews. I'm convinced they edit only the ones that make women to be gold diggers. I don't believe most women are gold diggers. What I do believe is that a man who makes more money and is financially stable generally has the same attributes that women in general find more attractive. It is a higher priority for women than it is for men.
I think today younger generations of women are even asking for more.... because their earning potential is rising and even equaling men. So their expectations of a man's minimum income are also rising.
Which sounds combined like men will be expected to have even higher incomes with which to support the ladies.
They had a serious form of FPIES which resulted in not only being born underweight but continuously unable to get the nutrients they required to thrive through normal formulas or breast milk. The formula we required was extremely expensive. The normal formula is about $15 a can. The ones we had was $50 a can and we needed a lot of it for two. I know it was probably illegal but I actually had friends help me with supplies out of Canada because I was desperate. By the time we fully transitioned them to normal foods (albeit a very restricted diet due to FPIES and food allergies), I had a two-month's supply. I had a poor fellow in a similar situation drive 3 hours from PA into NJ offering $30 per can. I felt so bad for him after talking to him in person, I simply gave it to him free of charge.
Even if the twins were born "normal" she had already made the decision that she was to remain at home with the kids for our second and she was not going to make the sacrifices required to support the family. She made that decision on her own without me long before the twins were in the picture. There was absolutely no way she can support the family even if we had 1 healthy baby. Heck, she can't even pay half the bills now. She doesn't care as long as she feels like she is the mother and working the job she wants to work. Doesn't matter if we went bankrupt in the process or if my needs/wants were not even a priority.
Yes we were both tired. We were both overworked. But I acknowledged her struggles and supported the family. I took on two jobs. I even paid for daycare. It started out as 1-2 days a week so she had a break. Then it increased to 3 days a week so she had 1 free day and 2 work days as per her request.. Day care was more than my mortgage. I am the one that put 20% for the house. I even paid for a housekeeper to help keep up. I did the cooking and cleaned the kitchen. I'm the one saving for her retirement. Even after separation, I'm the one who bought her a replacement vehicle large enough for the kids. I'm the one who cleared out her debts after marriage and dumped my entire life savings.
During this, she even quit her job for a more enjoyable easier one without telling me. She forgot that her previous job was paying for our medical insurance and her job essentially was a pay cut. So again, I had to step up for a different job that provided insurance AND pass up opportunities I wanted to pursue. It was a terrible decision considering we needed good insurance for the twins.
Here is the thing. I would have been just fine with all of this. I was raised to make sacrifices for the sake of the family. It was my purpose. Not happy but I would have been fine.. even satisfied knowing that my children survived. All I wanted was at least some recognition and respect for stepping up.
What I got instead was her asking me to separate, I had to leave my home, lose daily interaction with my children, and still be responsible for the vast majority of the bills. I lived in a room and then a crappy apartment which also cost more money. So instead of having more time with my children, I ended up having to "schedule" time so I can do things with them and be with them. It was a horrible experience.
The unreasonable part here is she gave up on "us" when life got tough. Struggling is part of life. It is what it is. It is how one deals with life's struggles that matters here. She only saw her own struggles but was blind to my own struggles and what I was doing to help. It was only after COVID did she realized how much I was actually contributing so I moved back in... to our basement and she started to actually listen to my side. That's what it took for her to listen. Not talk... she doesn't do that yet... but at least listen.
Even today after 9 years of separation and finally healthy children, she is still part-time working the same low-paying job. She is home 1-2 days a week while the kids are now in public school. Meanwhile, I sit here still providing but feeling totally "disposable".
Was your wife ever assessed for either post partum depression or just depression? Were you? Dealing with twins who are dealing with extensive food allergies, who are throwing up a lot, maybe having recurrent diarrhea, plus just acute financial difficulties that sounds like things that could provoke learned helplessness, but learned helplessness often presents as depression.
Untreated depression explains a lot of your wife's behavior here, being un or under employed, emotionally checking out of your relationships, that's just what happens when you are depressed (you isolate). Depression can also explain why she isn't real communicative too.
I hope you don't feel like I am attacking you here, I am not. I know you are dealing with stuff.
Toys don't shape career choices. never said that. But it does instill what society deems as desirable traits in future men and women.
A boy playing dress up, tea time, and with doll houses will still cause concern....
A girls playing with trucks and such lesser so....
There is a reason...
Relative to the thread (and in choosing a relationship partner), we make the determination as to what is a desirable (human) trait i.e. communicative, loyal, honest, compassionate, sense of humor and so on (as well as whether or not we have a stable/healthy relationship, for that matter).
It’s much different than speaking to femininity or masculinity in terms of gender and sexual attraction/orientation or antiquated gender roles. However, the latter appears to be the crux of what is being discussed in this thread (and elsewhere).
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit
Also, your couple posts are along the blurry lines of "happiness" and "satisfaction" when it comes to career and employment.
From my perspective, the lines aren’t blurred; why would anyone choose to base their life in totality around a relationship or kids sans a career or life of their own. It simply does not contribute to the likelihood of overall satisfaction or happiness, individually or within the context of a healthy and thriving relationship.
I guess that depends on how one defines a traditional man.
This is how the OP defined traditional woman.
1) "Traditional" Woman: Has your children, stays at home to take care of them, cooks well, keeps the house very clean, wears very feminine clothing and keeps herself made up/hair done, etc, has sex whenever the husband wants, does more listening than talking, keeps her opinions to herself.
So what would a traditional man be?
Works hard, long hours or two jobs to provide a good living for his wife and kids, nice house, household help with the kids and housework so she can go to the gym and salon/spa to maintain that feminine look and be rested to have sex whenever the husband wants. A generous allowance for those nice clothes to make her look feminine. Takes 100% responsibility for everything, day to day decisions/actions, long term decisions, everything, including maintaining a large life insurance policy and savings in case of any unforeseen financial misfortunes since she has no opinions or wisdom or income to contribute. And should there be a divorce, of course the traditional man must provide child support and sufficient lifelong alimony to cover housing, food, transportation, medical expenses, etc. since she has no job experience of earning potential.
I doubt many men are willing to be that.
Though our lifestyle is much different than what you described, this view is what I always envisioned the ideal marriage would be like when I was growing up.
Was your wife ever assessed for either post partum depression or just depression? Were you? Dealing with twins who are dealing with extensive food allergies, who are throwing up a lot, maybe having recurrent diarrhea, plus just acute financial difficulties that sounds like things that could provoke learned helplessness, but learned helplessness often presents as depression.
Untreated depression explains a lot of your wife's behavior here...
Yes maybe. But I hope that I will not offend usayit when I say that there is a simpler explanation for his wife's behavior. Obviously I don't know her and only hear his side of the story. But based on what he described only, it seems that she might just be a selfish, inconsiderate person, not willing to contribute equally to marriage. It sound like she really was not able to handle children or being in long term relationship.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Afterall, the conversation did steer into the ol' men are too lazy to initiate a divorce and women always make the hard decision on behalf initiate divorce routine.
Which can be true in a lot of cases even if it's not in yours.
I feel like, when I read your entire discussion of your situation, you're more in agreement with me than you think. You long for your wife to recognize the practical sacrifices you made, and to be practical about life and a real PARTNER in the mission you embarked on when you both became parents to these kids.
How can you possibly think that just because this is your specific situation, that this is really a gendered problem or has anything to do with gender roles?
I mean, I don't expect people to care enough about my history or situation to remember it from my past posts, my ego isn't quite that inflated or anything, but I am also hesitant to dump it all out again...I suspect you at least recall some of the stuff I've talked about with my past. My first marriage to the father of my two kids was not great for a whole lot of years, then culminated in absolute disaster. During the "not great" years, I longed for a real partner just like you do. I felt like my ex was absolutely focused and centered on his own stuff and had to have the first and best of everything, he was flaky in employment, he did not want to contribute to anything with regard to cleaning or cooking, I felt like I just...CARED...so much more, about whether the whole ship sailed or sank.
It is not impossible for a woman, like me, to have a whole lot of sympathy for your situation. Because I've been there, and I've felt that.
These problems are human problems. Do you really believe that because you were the "good guy" (at least from what we get with only your side of the story, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) in this story, that men are always or even mostly the good guys when marriages or families have problems? Just because I think that my ex's behavior was really terrible in our story, does not mean that I believe that women are always innocent victims or the "good guy" in the story when there is divorce. Hell, I don't even claim that I did nothing wrong...I just stand by my position that nothing I could have done deserved the behavior he did.
I just think it's a crazy waste of time to be looking for this whole thing to be men's fault or women's fault. I talked about the things I did, to push back on the idea that it's all women causing divorces. There are probably as many problem men as problem women and whether the woman initiates it can be for a whole lot of possible reasons.
Yes, including the one you experienced.
But that does not mean we can paint our own experiences on some big portion of the population, though.
I just think it's all messy and complicated and there are as many stories as there are people to tell them. You don't get any guarantee of good or bad in a marriage from seeking traditional or modern or anything else. This is not like...buying a car or something.
And y'know, I'm starting to see shelato's point of view here too. I think you both were in way over your heads with an incredibly hard situation. And while she maybe did not at all times make the best decisions, one can be forgiving of people who struggle to cope with what you two were coping with. Unfortunately what I also sense is that you are pretty invested in your own righteous grievance - that you've got more interest in a relationship with it, than with her. You admit to now doing what basically amounts to lecturing to a woman who is probably sitting there disassociating. (She's "listening" but "not talking"...?) I mean, I definitely get that you want to be heard about how you feel. But how much do you care about how she feels, or felt at any time?
I think that's a difficult thing in a marriage, too, because hard times that are just hard on everyone involved, can lead two adults to be so wrapped up in the suffering that they are personally experiencing...each is desperate for relief and is reaching out for understanding of the other, and each is also basically saying, "Yes but what about ME??" at one another. Each comes to think that the other has no empathy or understanding and what they are going through is worse, and worse than worse, it's unappreciated and unseen. Both end up feeling hostile and isolated and miserable. Each of you lack compassion for the other. Until the point where you actually see the one you once loved as an actual bad person.
Or worse, you each start to institutionalize these thoughts into a whole case in your mind against the opposite sex.
Honestly I have no idea how anybody comes back from this kind of thing. But, y'know, I was willing to try too, until my ex started to terrorize us with guns. Hey, there ya go. It could be worse.
Yes maybe. But I hope that I will not offend usayit when I say that there is a simpler explanation for his wife's behavior. Obviously I don't know her and only hear his side of the story. But based on what he described only, it seems that she might just be a selfish, inconsiderate person, not willing to contribute equally to marriage. It sound like she really was not able to handle children or being in long term relationship.
Look at this woman's background, this woman intentionally picked a career where she was working with kids with problems, this doesn't strike me as someone who is inconsiderate and selfish but just someone who is overwhelmed.
People who are overwhelmed pullback and withdraw from life. Usayit's family is just dealing with big problems without enough downtime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit
It took a lot to get to the point that things just work today. It would seem like credit if I had a choice. Remember, I'm the one who would move out of my home and lose daily fatherly interaction with my children. So not only did I not get my chance to be home raising our 2nd child but I would be even more absent from their lives. So before someone suggests that maybe I can use the court system to fight for more time or even custody? She is a good mother and her field of expertise is in child development with a specialty in ADHD and autistic children. No way I could convince a judge that they would be better off living with me. I doubt my saying she has been a neglectful wife would get any good standing.
Which can be true in a lot of cases even if it's not in yours.
I feel like, when I read your entire discussion of your situation, you're more in agreement with me than you think. You long for your wife to recognize the practical sacrifices you made, and to be practical about life and a real PARTNER in the mission you embarked on when you both became parents to these kids.
How can you possibly think that just because this is your specific situation, that this is really a gendered problem or has anything to do with gender roles?
I mean, I don't expect people to care enough about my history or situation to remember it from my past posts, my ego isn't quite that inflated or anything, but I am also hesitant to dump it all out again...I suspect you at least recall some of the stuff I've talked about with my past. My first marriage to the father of my two kids was not great for a whole lot of years, then culminated in absolute disaster. During the "not great" years, I longed for a real partner just like you do. I felt like my ex was absolutely focused and centered on his own stuff and had to have the first and best of everything, he was flaky in employment, he did not want to contribute to anything with regard to cleaning or cooking, I felt like I just...CARED...so much more, about whether the whole ship sailed or sank.
It is not impossible for a woman, like me, to have a whole lot of sympathy for your situation. Because I've been there, and I've felt that.
These problems are human problems. Do you really believe that because you were the "good guy" (at least from what we get with only your side of the story, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) in this story, that men are always or even mostly the good guys when marriages or families have problems? Just because I think that my ex's behavior was really terrible in our story, does not mean that I believe that women are always innocent victims or the "good guy" in the story when there is divorce. Hell, I don't even claim that I did nothing wrong...I just stand by my position that nothing I could have done deserved the behavior he did.
I just think it's a crazy waste of time to be looking for this whole thing to be men's fault or women's fault. I talked about the things I did, to push back on the idea that it's all women causing divorces. There are probably as many problem men as problem women and whether the woman initiates it can be for a whole lot of possible reasons.
Yes, including the one you experienced.
But that does not mean we can paint our own experiences on some big portion of the population, though.
I just think it's all messy and complicated and there are as many stories as there are people to tell them. You don't get any guarantee of good or bad in a marriage from seeking traditional or modern or anything else. This is not like...buying a car or something.
And y'know, I'm starting to see shelato's point of view here too. I think you both were in way over your heads with an incredibly hard situation. And while she maybe did not at all times make the best decisions, one can be forgiving of people who struggle to cope with what you two were coping with. Unfortunately what I also sense is that you are pretty invested in your own righteous grievance - that you've got more interest in a relationship with it, than with her. You admit to now doing what basically amounts to lecturing to a woman who is probably sitting there disassociating. (She's "listening" but "not talking"...?) I mean, I definitely get that you want to be heard about how you feel. But how much do you care about how she feels, or felt at any time?
I think that's a difficult thing in a marriage, too, because hard times that are just hard on everyone involved, can lead two adults to be so wrapped up in the suffering that they are personally experiencing...each is desperate for relief and is reaching out for understanding of the other, and each is also basically saying, "Yes but what about ME??" at one another. Each comes to think that the other has no empathy or understanding and what they are going through is worse, and worse than worse, it's unappreciated and unseen. Both end up feeling hostile and isolated and miserable. Each of you lack compassion for the other. Until the point where you actually see the one you once loved as an actual bad person.
Or worse, you each start to institutionalize these thoughts into a whole case in your mind against the opposite sex.
Honestly I have no idea how anybody comes back from this kind of thing. But, y'know, I was willing to try too, until my ex started to terrorize us with guns. Hey, there ya go. It could be worse.
I think righteous indignation can be the consequence of depression. I think when people are overwhelmed, they can get upset I think Usayit is overwhelmed, but I think his wife is too. When you are depressed you see the worst in others that is why they aren't backing each other emotionally and then feel abandoned by the other.
But the one point that John Gottman emphasizes is that if the two partners in a relationship are willing to work on the relationship, there is a chance you can pull it back together and right now they are living together so there is a window of opportunity.
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