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Got you running around in circles now. Do us a favor and stop shouting by bolding your text, I can read quite fine w/o the formatting enhancements.
I am not shouting !!!
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You missed the point. If Arabic is the only way to read the qu'ran, then only people who already have a grasp of Arabic are going to be muslim. That is why it will remain the highest in the ME only.
And this statement is yours from a science fiction point of few .. now lets see waht facts say : East , North east of asia , northern Africa held the largest Muslim population in the world .. Indonesia is the country with the single largestMuslim population (East asia ) also Pakistan , India and Bangladesh all of those contires are not in the middle east yet they held the largest Muslim population Heloo ... any body here ??
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If one could not worship allah in English w/o chanting in Arabic, your religion will have no appeal to English speaking people. This would be the same as having to learn latin to understand what the priest is chanting about, last time I looked, most roman catholics do not understand latin.
Why are you telling me this ? You should say it to 6 to 8 million Muslims in America & to 1.5 million Muslims in the UK. And you said that i am the one who running around in circles
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To try and convince english speaking people you are forced to translate the qu'ran and then we get to see silly stuff about your prophet splitting the moon or some equally lame claim that the islamic faith is science friendly.
Ahaa .. so thats why Islam is the second largest & the fastest growing religion in the world . So the question is : Do you think those silly stuff could be the reason
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Were I even remotely interested in learning the details of your religion, learning arabic will be the last thing on my mind. The appeal of islam is only to those already born into that faith or in areas where it is the predominant religion. Thus its predominance will be limited to the ME where it is practiced the most.
You can say whatever you like as long as it's all about you
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You are not the first muslim apologist I have had discussions with and probably not the last. You are all very sensitive about your beliefs and in the arena of skeptism with the other two faiths, you lot fair the worst.
Everything in this thread has been don't listen to the news, don't believe what other's say about islam etc. yet you are in a public arena and have to deal with the issues I have raised.
You still have honor killings, public executions or mutilations, you dress your women up as if their sexuality is a threat to themselves and to you male muslims. I ask the question again, are all muslim men rapists? If not, why the need for women to wear such ghastly garb?
See, this is why folk are anxious at your religion in that IF it were possible that you could become the world's only religion, your sharia laws would force people to dress funny and if refused would result in a death penalty or imprisonment. Your religion and beliefs are still in the dark ages when the two other faiths had similar views wrt women and punishments for non belief. Even as a male, I would be forced to adopt your religion and wear a funny cap. At least with the other two, it is my choice. But then again, were they to gain supreme power, I would still be skeptical as they have a bad track record too.
Maaaan ... you are holding a lot of anger inside your heart it's not good for your health .. take it easy
Then why can you not post like normal people do? Bolding an entire post does not make you assertive
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And this statement is yours from a science fiction point of few .. now lets see waht facts say :
East , North east of asia , northern Africa held the largest Muslim population in the world .. Indonesia is the country with the single largest Muslim population (East asia ) also Pakistan , India and Bangladesh all of those contires are not in the middle east yet they held the largest Muslim population
Heloo ... any body here ??
And 99.9999% of these are already muslim IOW have migrated from the ME and are brought up with the tradition of the religion. Oh I know there are converts like Cat Stevens or whatever his arabic new name is now.
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Why are you telling me this ?
I tell you this because Latin is still the language the RCC priests chant their prayers in. You claimed that the qu'ran is chanted in Arabic so that is where the similarities are.
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You should say it to 6 to 8 million Muslims in America & to 1.5 million Muslims in the UK.
And you said that i am the one who running around in circles
99% migrants or offspring of migrants. Tell me I am wrong.
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Ahaa .. so thats why Islam is the second largest & the fastest growing religion in the world .
So the question is :
Do you think those silly stuff could be the reason
Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Natural Attrition is the reason for the decline in xianity and the inverse is true for islam. IOW you are out breeding the xians and xian youth are leaving the faith in hordes, that is why you you are the fastest growing religion, however the majority of this growth is still in the ME or should I say traditional muslim countries rather.
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You can say whatever you like as long as it's all about you
It's about the facts you are trying to distort.
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Maaaan ... you are holding a lot of anger inside your heart
it's not good for your health .. take it easy
Not anger, just disgust and outrage what your religion actually does to others in the ME and Africa. It is barbaric and archaic. At least xianity has gone through some reformation and modernization, islam is still stuck about 400 years behind.
To deny the atrocities is foolhardy. There is no moral outrage ny you lot what they do there, just that they are bad people. Well we only see the bad peoples example of your qu'ran taken literally to the extreme. Your religion is no less a way of mind and population control than all the other man made religions.
The xians have had their crazies too but they usually oust them or talk against them. Never seen one xian on this forum in support of the Westboro church, they at least voice their outrage and it is on all the forums.
Only where there are secular laws in place are you forced to adopt a more moderate stance on islam, it is the same here in SA, they are all moderate. That is what we need to see happen to islam all over the world.
The holy land of the muslims is where this is all happening. The law there is based on the qu'ran and although in your opinion is not what the book teaches the fact reveal otherwise.
You are hiding behind weak platitudes. You pretend that this barbarism is not happening on a huge scale. The silence of the global muslim community is deafening if this is not the way.
i dont know where ur getting ur information from but its all wrong. they do not live by islamic law there. no place lives by true islamic law today. there is no silence of muslims i mean look at me, a muslim just trying to tell u that u have it all wrong and not even you listen. you dont think the same thing happens with a majority of muslims that try and speak up. they not only get ignored like ur doing with me, but they talk down on us even more like your doing. we're trying to make things better, what are you doing? your not allowing muslims to speak up just like a majority of people.
so accordong to seeker sa just hates all muslims basically. man, woman, child, infant, doesnt matter according to him we have over 2 billion people in the world that believe in a religion that kills disbelievers, rapes womenand stones them after... o and not one muslim i excluded from this...
i cant believe that he believes this is what islam really is... guess tht means lupe fiasco, dave chapelle, etc. all these famous people believe its ok to rape and kill innocent people too...?
you have quite an imagination and you watch too much tv... islam does not practice nor preach anything you regurgitated from whatever anti islam sources you have read. you keep bringing up what a few bad people who just happen to be muslim have done but prove to me where in the quran does it say that it is permissable to kill an innocent girl who has gotten raped... or where does it even say that raping or killing innocent people is ok... you wont find it because its not part of the religion thus u have no argument.
you claim to know so much of islam but obviously you dont. ill be suprised if youve even read the quran. because if you did u would know that all these things bad "muslims" do is not part of the religion. so you cant go around saying its part of islam and if your not ignorant youll stop claiming these things but if u are ignorant youll continue... which wouldnt suprise me...
i dont know where ur getting ur information from but its all wrong. they do not live by islamic law there. no place lives by true islamic law today.
You're delusional. lick the link, that is living under islamic law.
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there is no silence of muslims i mean look at me, a muslim just trying to tell u that u have it all wrong and not even you listen. you dont think the same thing happens with a majority of muslims that try and speak up. they not only get ignored like ur doing with me, but they talk down on us even more like your doing.
Well a simple organization supported by the 1Bn muslims you claimare different, maybe a website or a forum geared at trying to change things where islam is followed incorrectly will be adequate evidence. Problem is, nothing like this exists because if you ever did something like this, there would be a bounty put on your head from the radical states. Just like the cartoonist and the more recent thing on facebook, you are powerless or should I rather say gutless to change it. Tell me I am wrong. If it was so rosy living in Saudi and other ME countries, why flee? Problem is the crazies have come with you lot to the western countries and have effectively shut you up. The fear of reprisal keeps your mouths shut. This is how it was in the early xian faith. That was more than 400 years ago. Hence, my observations are correct, its is a dark age religion.
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we're trying to make things better, what are you doing? your not allowing muslims to speak up just like a majority of people.
No you are not, I think your intentions maybe sincere but you are going to have to change islam from within, you are going to have to take the risk, you are going to have to take out the imams that are radical. When I say you I mean the moderates.
Which brings us full circle back to the discussion of how well the qu'ran is preserved. You have imams that interpret this and set their own codes and this is the result of uneducated people relying on misinformation. This is why they are able to influence folk to jihad instead of living in peace.
Where do think I get my information, well it is called the internet and I have no other resource other than google. That brings up all the info I need. That is why I posted those image and links where the pics are too graphic to post here, you want us to pretend that does not happen, put your head in the sand all you want, this stuff happens in the ME, Africa Indonesia, IOW all over the world.
Islam is the equivalent of the xian Westboro Baptist Church running the entire religion. The voice of the moderate is drowned by the crazies. Only muslims can silence these nutters because if anyone else tried, you do exactly what the xians do and play the persecution complex card.
At least the xians have evolved not to do witch hunts and stone people to death anymore. Islam appears to be moving in the other direction. Only in countries where other laws prevail so we see the moderate side. But the moderates supposedly safe from reprisal are silent because your crazies have infiltrated. Thus any muslim speaking out against any crazy in the ME is targeted to be taken out.
Click the link, my phrase search, seems only ex-muslims and some speaking out against terrorists. A few articles are just like your platitudes claiming as you have done in your post that there is a global conspiracy to destroy islam and somehow I am part of it.
All I want to see is justice and equal human rights, that is as much interest as I have as an atheist, and I am an equal opportunity atheist.
Until you can show me activism against radical islam, then my opinion and view of the religion does not change.
This brings me anyway to the point of my standard approach to theists, if allah does not want it this way, then why does he not do anything about it?
The answer is, allah, yahweh, elohim, christ are all man made gods and the religions are all man made. These gods do not exist an that is why they are powerless to change their followers. It is simply man influencing other men using ancient texts.
You're delusional. lick the link, that is living under islamic law.
Well a simple organization supported by the 1Bn muslims you claimare different, maybe a website or a forum geared at trying to change things where islam is followed incorrectly will be adequate evidence. Problem is, nothing like this exists because if you ever did something like this, there would be a bounty put on your head from the radical states. Just like the cartoonist and the more recent thing on facebook, you are powerless or should I rather say gutless to change it. Tell me I am wrong. If it was so rosy living in Saudi and other ME countries, why flee? Problem is the crazies have come with you lot to the western countries and have effectively shut you up. The fear of reprisal keeps your mouths shut. This is how it was in the early xian faith. That was more than 400 years ago. Hence, my observations are correct, its is a dark age religion.
No you are not, I think your intentions maybe sincere but you are going to have to change islam from within, you are going to have to take the risk, you are going to have to take out the imams that are radical. When I say you I mean the moderates.
Which brings us full circle back to the discussion of how well the qu'ran is preserved. You have imams that interpret this and set their own codes and this is the result of uneducated people relying on misinformation. This is why they are able to influence folk to jihad instead of living in peace.
Where do think I get my information, well it is called the internet and I have no other resource other than google. That brings up all the info I need. That is why I posted those image and links where the pics are too graphic to post here, you want us to pretend that does not happen, put your head in the sand all you want, this stuff happens in the ME, Africa Indonesia, IOW all over the world.
Islam is the equivalent of the xian Westboro Baptist Church running the entire religion. The voice of the moderate is drowned by the crazies. Only muslims can silence these nutters because if anyone else tried, you do exactly what the xians do and play the persecution complex card.
At least the xians have evolved not to do witch hunts and stone people to death anymore. Islam appears to be moving in the other direction. Only in countries where other laws prevail so we see the moderate side. But the moderates supposedly safe from reprisal are silent because your crazies have infiltrated. Thus any muslim speaking out against any crazy in the ME is targeted to be taken out.
Click the link, my phrase search, seems only ex-muslims and some speaking out against terrorists. A few articles are just like your platitudes claiming as you have done in your post that there is a global conspiracy to destroy islam and somehow I am part of it.
All I want to see is justice and equal human rights, that is as much interest as I have as an atheist, and I am an equal opportunity atheist.
Until you can show me activism against radical islam, then my opinion and view of the religion does not change.
This brings me anyway to the point of my standard approach to theists, if allah does not want it this way, then why does he not do anything about it?
The answer is, allah, yahweh, elohim, christ are all man made gods and the religions are all man made. These gods do not exist an that is why they are powerless to change their followers. It is simply man influencing other men using ancient texts.
hahahaha! you are joking right? you type in...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
muslims speaking out against ISLAM"
and then say that
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
seems only ex-muslims and some speaking out against terrorists"
... duuhh because ISLAM and TERRORIST are two different things, of course you won't find muslims speaking against their own religion because then it would be really stupid because they're talking down on themselves... good argument... and i like how in your mind ISLAM and TERRORISM are one in the same... research the religion and not what you see on tv or read on the internet. type in "muslims against radicals" im not going to do that one for you... and btw, the world wants muslims to change "radical" muslims but what they don't realize is that "radical muslims" have been so brainwashed that it doesnt even matter if we are muslims too, if we are american or we do not agree with what they say we are in the same boat with everyone else... but you didnt think outside the box because your too busy being close minded.. never stopped to think... hey why don't you go talk to a bunch of crazy people who will kill you if you don't agree with them... probably because you'd have to be crazy yourself...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
you are going to have to take out the imams that are radical. When I say you I mean the moderates.
are you joking... not even an entire nation of people can stop ALL bad people from doing bad things... in the 50's america tried to ban alcohol and over half a million people were thrown in jail and they were running out of room, but people were still brewing in their homes... they gave up so if a nation couldnt stop "normal american citizens" how do you expect a group of people, or even a nation to stop CRAZY people from doing what they're doing... now your thinking completely irrationally.... thats like me asking you to take all the non-muslims that kill, rape, steal, etc. (bad people) out of society... i mean actually just try and take them all out of a city... how irrational is that argument?.... good one...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
All I want to see is justice and equal human rights, that is as much interest as I have as an atheist, and I am an equal opportunity atheist.
this was too funny... equal opportunity... meaning i practice what i believe without being judged or mocked for it because im not the one doing a suicide bombing or even supporting it, im not the one killing and raping and stoning people but you treat me like im one of them... ya real EQUAL... if you really think your being fair or equal maybe your just soo far gone in a dreamworld that what you do or say is right and everyone else, even if proven right, is still wrong... suuuuree...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Until you can show me activism against radical islam, then my opinion and view of the religion does not change."
because not EVERYONE is an activist... most people just live their lives, muslim or non-muslim...
but if you really want some information, just do a google search since the internet seems to be your favorite tool that never lies... type in "muslims against radical islam"... im not going to do it for you... do your own research because instead of looking up the bad things people SAY about ISLAM why dont you research the religion for what it is and not what people say it is, theres plenty of islam 101 sessions that take place here and there...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
This brings me anyway to the point of my standard approach to theists, if allah does not want it this way, then why does he not do anything about it?
i dont know about everyone else but if you ask me he allows it to happen so i can thank him that im not near as close-minded or ignorant as SOME PEOPLE out there...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
you want us to pretend that does not happen, put your head in the sand all you want, this stuff happens in the ME, Africa Indonesia, IOW all over the world.
no i don't pretend it doesnt happen but i can ask you the same. im on the cd forum to explain to people like you that you got it all mixed up and to answer peoples questions if they have any about islam. im not here promoting terrorism or suicide bombings, raping or killing innocent people, why? because i am a muslim and thats not part of my religion. bad stuff happens everywhere but what your trying to do has not been done ever in the history of mankind... theres always been and going to be bad people... and its not because of God, its because people do bad things, God doesnt make someone rape, kill, steal, etc. people do it on their own which is why the world is getting worse and worse in stead of better and better, people like you want to save the world by typing in some threatening messages toward islam and think your making a change when in reality when you open your eyes your just spreading hate and lies about people. how would you like it if i said (hypothetically your a mexican) "mexicans are murders and all they do is rape girls and kill innocent people" "i saw a mexican magazine the other day that was promoting suicide bombings" "theyre all crazy"... and then i said "well if you dont want people talking about you like that you have to change an entire nation of people and stop bad people from doing bad things"...
this is why your arguments are not only irrational, insulting, and ignorant, but your not helping anything or showing anybody anything they havent seen before. but its people like me that try and clean up the mess you make... and clean up the mess those bad muslims do overseas... im helping the situation and your adding fuel to the fire... i really hope you open your eyes and see that...
Only in Islam do we see the atrocities these muslim countries allow or in fact condone. To simply say this is due to bad people is the typical muslim apologist rhetoric. This shiny mirror will always be your biggest stumbling block.
OH BTW I did find the site of muslims against radical Islam but that was just a host of Utoob videos. I have been reading an ex muslim forum and oddly enough their views tend to match mine. They are the only group I found vocal against islam in general.
Your approach does not differ a whole lot to xians who also like to claim, that is not what the bible teaches and those people are not real xians and we have seen that the jews are not all in agreement with each other.
It is only in isalm where body mutilation or public executions either by stoning or beheading takes place and usually for crimes not warranting a death penalty, thus the death penalty is derived from the q'ran or their interpretation of it. Even the 100 lashes for adultery which is supposedly less barbaric is carried out where in most civilized western cultures, lashing/flogging is considered assault against that person and no crime is deserving of any body scarring or mutilation.
One of you muslims even hinted at if there were body mutilation for stealing there may be less crime in the USA so the mindset from the contents of islam remains sick. Your religion has not evolved out of the dark ages and you are probably only moderate because you fled this brutality to a more civilized country where the secular laws force you not to enact the full shaira.
One is not even safe to abandon islam for fear of reprisal where islam (or a derivative thereof) is the law of the land.
Your religion is NOT a religion of peace, your spinning of the fact do not change what we see in the news and read and have pictures to prove it happens (with some pride I might add)
So it really does not matter what the qu'ran says or does not say, the results speak for themselves. Thus the whole intent of the OP is moot.
o man, i really thought you might realize what i was saying but like i said... so far gone...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Only in Islam do we see the atrocities these muslim countries allow or in fact condone. To simply say this is due to bad people is the typical muslim apologist rhetoric. This shiny mirror will always be your biggest stumbling block.
ONLY in ISLAM? you just dont get it.... you ONLY see it in the MIDDLE EAST.... the MIDDLE EAST however does not make ISLAM. the MIDDLE EAST is NOT a MUSLIM COUNTRY and you cannot base a religion on what a small part of the world does... but it seems your too far in your own "im right your wrong" dreamworld to understand the difference...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
OH BTW I did find the site of muslims against radical Islam but that was just a host of Utoob videos. I have been reading an ex muslim forum and oddly enough their views tend to match mine. They are the only group I found vocal against islam in general.
against ISLAM... no crap... but muslims are against TERRORISM not their own religion... talking to you is like talking to a wall. of course ex muslims are going to have bad things to say about islam just like an ex christian say bad things about christianity or an ex-jew would say bad things about judaism... your problem is your afraid to go to the source, quran and sunnah, to prove anything because your evidence for "bad islam" does not exist, bad muslims exist, bad people exist, bad countries exist, but youve still after so many post only given websites, pictures, links, etc. after so many post back and forth with you nowhere in the religion itself do you find anything bad that these people do overseas, rape, killing of innocent people, etc. you have no argument and your arguments can be used against you... for example you have pictures of bad muslims, i have pictures of good muslims, you have EX-MUSLIMS going against ISLAM, i have MUSLIMS against TERRORISM... your arguments work for both sides... making them irrational...
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Your approach does not differ a whole lot to xians who also like to claim, that is not what the bible teaches and those people are not real xians and we have seen that the jews are not all in agreement with each other.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
It is only in isalm where body mutilation or public executions either by stoning or beheading takes place and usually for crimes not warranting a death penalty, thus the death penalty is derived from the q'ran or their interpretation of it. Even the 100 lashes for adultery which is supposedly less barbaric is carried out where in most civilized western cultures, lashing/flogging is considered assault against that person and no crime is deserving of any body scarring or mutilation.
actually islam is not a country nor a location. its a religion. and thus, you base judge the book without even reading it. maybe thats why you have not given any evidence beccause youve never actually researched the religion but just researched the peoples attitude in the middle east...
[quote=SeekerSA;18314258]One of you muslims even hinted at if there were body mutilation for stealing there may be less crime in the USA so the mindset from the contents of islam remains sick. Your religion has not evolved out of the dark ages and you are probably only moderate because you fled this brutality to a more civilized country where the secular laws force you not to enact the full shaira.[quote]
yes because again, all muslims are from the middle east right? i have lived in america my whole life. but in your mind ISLAM is a location i forgot, if your muslim, in your mind, you were born overseas and came here... o i forgot "your right and im wrong"
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
One is not even safe to abandon islam for fear of reprisal where islam (or a derivative thereof) is the law of the land.
Your religion is NOT a religion of peace, your spinning of the fact do not change what we see in the news and read and have pictures to prove it happens (with some pride I might add)
So it really does not matter what the qu'ran says or does not say, the results speak for themselves. Thus the whole intent of the OP is moot.
what your saying basically is that you have not read the quran and sunnah and you take all the evidence you see from tv and anti-islamic sites and people... ya, really open minded and equal... the people dont make the religion, the words in the books make the religion. but you too scared to even face the truth. because "your right and im wrong" you dont have proof...
* Hi Could you till me please how many different versions are there of the Bible & what is the original version ? If there is any difference beside translation then why is that ? Is't that supposed to be god's words ?!!.. then how could you change god's words ? Am i missing something here !! Thank you
Even though I now do not believe in the Bible being the word of God as I did before, this is my anwer to your question.
From what I have read I have to agree with those that have said that modern Bible versions as compared to old manuscripts of the same writings amazingly are very accurate despite the time span difference between them.
To me many people that call themselves Christians concentrate so much in an interpretation of the Bible to the point that they forget the general point. Example: Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Christ died in a cross but on a stake. Oh boy! The rest of the group attack them so viciously and call them a cult and other names. What does it matter!!!!!! Regardless of how Jesus died that is one fact, HE DIED. He was taken by Pilate by the Jews and was sentenced to die. So why do loving Christians chastise another group that happened to interpret ancient writing differently than they do and came up with a different conclusion, HE DIED!
We can spend book discussing difference between other Christian groups. Well, why go that far. I just read many of the replies in this thread and I can see how different Christian views come to light. The OP asked a question and writers started to discuss THEIR difference in Bible interpretations.
However, to the question from the OP. Why the differences? Human nature. An example, TODAY a law can be written somewhere in Hometown U.S.A. Guess what? I assure you that there will be lawyers arguing the interpretation of that law. That law may be nowhere near as old as the Bible writings and it is already being debated as to what it mean. The same with the Constitution. There were still some Founding Fathers alive and there were some interpretation on parts of it. What do you expect from ancient writings? So even if you find the origian writing of each book in the Bible, it would not make a difference. You would still have differences and see Christians arguing as you can see all over the Religion forum, take care.
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I am not shouting !!! 
) also Pakistan , India and Bangladesh all of those contires are not in the middle east 
yet they held the largest Muslim population 
