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Christians have elevated Jesus Christ, pbuh, to the level of God. always saying "in the name of Jesus" praying to Jesus, etc. we do not pray to the prophets of God or any of his followers. we pray to God alone. Christians pray to a trinitarian God and Jesus.
What has that to do with the price of eggs? How is invalidating xianity make your religion better?
You are doing exactlly what xians do, they invalidate judaism inferring the new testament is better and yet still using judaism as a foundation. The jews never accepted jesus as the messiah, some recognize him as merely a teacher, not even a prophet. Islam also traces its roots to judaism so both xianity and islam are spin offs of the original. You claim to follow essentially the same god, why then are there so many differences in the latter two religions? The answer is the same as for xianity, it was an invention of man. Judaism is also a man made religion. Most of the adherents are ceremonial only and a large portion of the jewish community are essentially agnostic.
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and we follow the example of our prophets. we try to be as much like the prophets as we can because we know that they were the most pious people amongst us. they were chosen by Allaah to be messengers.
No, they told you they were chosen by allah. Allah or any other god(s) probably do not exist just like zeus, thor, poseidon do not exist. It is merely the concept of folklore.
I have no problem with your beliefs, but if they are irrational, I will challenge them just like I would anyone else beliefs if I presumed they were pushing them on me. Muslims in SA pretty much keep to themselves, are not radical and are very nice people. My ex doctor is a muslim but he is retired now, he delivered both my children. The same can be said of most xians here as they are the majority cafeteria xians and hardly attend church except for weddings and the like.
You would be incorrect. They are the translation of the Qur'an. They contain all that the Qur'an contains in the vernacular of those reading it.
They do not say this is not the real Qur'an on the contrary they say on the cover Holy Qur'an.
It is not an explanation of what is in it. It is the translation of the Arabic into other languages.
When you read it you are reading the Qur'an.
Quran is gods words ... if god say in english language " i am the only god" then you must say the same words & pronunciation ... if you translate it into lets say Italian & say "Io sono l'unico dio " it gives the same meaning but its not gods words .. pronunciation is the most important thing when you read from Quran... when you pray and you want to read from quran you cant say "Io sono l'unico dio " you must say " i am the only god" or you will be just repeating the translation of those words .
Then thankfully, islam will remain essentially in the ME. N o one is really going to introduce Arabic as a second of third language for the benefit of muslims.
Like I sad before, islam is still in the dark ages.
Really !!!! Well ... thats just one of the many wonderful miracles of Islam & since it's obvious that you are speaking with out any knowledge i am pleased to inform you that Most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language but many can read the Quranic script and recite the Qur'an . Ninety percent of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language. Yet in daily prayers, when reading the Qur'an, or even in simple conversations with each other, Arabic rolls off any Muslim's tongue readily , but of course you didt know that !!
Last edited by squall-lionheart; 03-14-2011 at 05:55 AM..
Really !!!! Well ... thats just one of the many wonderful miracles of Islam & since it's obvious that you are speaking with out any knowledge i am pleased to inform you that Most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language but many can read the Quranic script and recite the Qur'an . Ninety percent of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language. Yet in daily prayers, when reading the Qur'an, or even in simple conversations with each other, Arabic rolls off any Muslim's tongue readily , but of course you didt know that !!
Do you always talk down to people like this? Those non Arabic speakers have to learn it and no it does not just "roll off any Muslims tongue". Arabic is a difficult language to learn. Yes prayers for prayers are spoken but the prayer service is led by one who recites the prayer.
Being able to recite without knowing what you are saying is not a great thing. That is one of the problems in Islam in that to many people are just reciting what they have memorized and they don't know what they are saying and if they do they do not understand the context in how it is meant to be understood.
Only to those who Insist to be down by useing words like "islam is still in the dark ages" !!
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Those non Arabic speakers have to learn it and no it does not just "roll off any Muslims tongue". Arabic is a difficult language to learn. Yes prayers for prayers are spoken but the prayer service is led by one who recites the prayer.
Its only difficult for those who wants it to bee difficult other ways we would be able to see hundreds of millions of non arabic muslims know how to read Quran in arabic language . Dont you think ?
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Being able to recite without knowing what you are saying is not a great thing.
Amen to that :
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Originally Posted by Jazzymom It is not an explanation of what is in it. It is the translation of the Arabic into other languages.
When you read it you are reading the Qur'an..
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That is one of the problems in Islam in that to many people are just reciting what they have memorized and they don't know what they are saying and if they do they do not understand the context in how it is meant to be understood.
Only to those who Insist to be down by useing words like "islam is still in the dark ages" !!
But in many ways it is..... Look at countries like Afghanistan, pakistan....
Its only difficult for those who wants it to bee difficult other ways we would be able to see hundreds of millions of non arabic muslims know how to read Quran in arabic language .
Aren't we the same here ?!!!
The same? How? I recite the Torah in Hebrew, I also take Hebrew at my local synagogue. I work to understand what I am chanting. I don't just memorize. I will continue taking Hebrew for a long time. I will continue to learn modern. I will surround myself with the language both modern and biblical. I will not memorize.
Really !!!!
Well ... thats just one of the many wonderful miracles of Islam & since it's obvious that you are speaking with out any knowledge i am pleased to inform you that Most of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language but many can read the Quranic script and recite the Qur'an .
Ninety percent of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as their native language. Yet in daily prayers, when reading the Qur'an, or even in simple conversations with each other, Arabic rolls off any Muslim's tongue readily , but of course you didt know that !!
Got you running around in circles now. Do us a favor and stop shouting by bolding your text, I can read quite fine w/o the formatting enhancements.
You missed the point. If Arabic is the only way to read the qu'ran, then only people who already have a grasp of Arabic are going to be muslim. That is why it will remain the highest in the ME only.
If one could not worship allah in English w/o chanting in Arabic, your religion will have no appeal to English speaking people. This would be the same as having to learn latin to understand what the priest is chanting about, last time I looked, most roman catholics do not understand latin.
To try and convince english speaking people you are forced to translate the qu'ran and then we get to see silly stuff about your prophet splitting the moon or some equally lame claim that the islamic faith is science friendly.
Were I even remotely interested in learning the details of your religion, learning arabic will be the last thing on my mind. The appeal of islam is only to those already born into that faith or in areas where it is the predominant religion. Thus its predominance will be limited to the ME where it is practiced the most.
You are not the first muslim apologist I have had discussions with and probably not the last. You are all very sensitive about your beliefs and in the arena of skeptism with the other two faiths, you lot fair the worst.
Everything in this thread has been don't listen to the news, don't believe what other's say about islam etc. yet you are in a public arena and have to deal with the issues I have raised.
You still have honor killings, public executions or mutilations, you dress your women up as if their sexuality is a threat to themselves and to you male muslims. I ask the question again, are all muslim men rapists? If not, why the need for women to wear such ghastly garb?
See, this is why folk are anxious at your religion in that IF it were possible that you could become the world's only religion, your sharia laws would force people to dress funny and if refused would result in a death penalty or imprisonment. Your religion and beliefs are still in the dark ages when the two other faiths had similar views wrt women and punishments for non belief. Even as a male, I would be forced to adopt your religion and wear a funny cap. At least with the other two, it is my choice. But then again, were they to gain supreme power, I would still be skeptical as they have a bad track record too.
Got you running around in circles now. Do us a favor and stop shouting by bolding your text, I can read quite fine w/o the formatting enhancements.
You missed the point. If Arabic is the only way to read the qu'ran, then only people who already have a grasp of Arabic are going to be muslim. That is why it will remain the highest in the ME only.
If one could not worship allah in English w/o chanting in Arabic, your religion will have no appeal to English speaking people. This would be the same as having to learn latin to understand what the priest is chanting about, last time I looked, most roman catholics do not understand latin.
To try and convince english speaking people you are forced to translate the qu'ran and then we get to see silly stuff about your prophet splitting the moon or some equally lame claim that the islamic faith is science friendly.
Were I even remotely interested in learning the details of your religion, learning arabic will be the last thing on my mind. The appeal of islam is only to those already born into that faith or in areas where it is the predominant religion. Thus its predominance will be limited to the ME where it is practiced the most.
You are not the first muslim apologist I have had discussions with and probably not the last. You are all very sensitive about your beliefs and in the arena of skeptism with the other two faiths, you lot fair the worst.
Everything in this thread has been don't listen to the news, don't believe what other's say about islam etc. yet you are in a public arena and have to deal with the issues I have raised.
You still have honor killings, public executions or mutilations, you dress your women up as if their sexuality is a threat to themselves and to you male muslims. I ask the question again, are all muslim men rapists? If not, why the need for women to wear such ghastly garb?
See, this is why folk are anxious at your religion in that IF it were possible that you could become the world's only religion, your sharia laws would force people to dress funny and if refused would result in a death penalty or imprisonment. Your religion and beliefs are still in the dark ages when the two other faiths had similar views wrt women and punishments for non belief. Even as a male, I would be forced to adopt your religion and wear a funny cap. At least with the other two, it is my choice. But then again, were they to gain supreme power, I would still be skeptical as they have a bad track record too.
There is a belief that men somehow because they have stronger sexual urges they somehow need to be protected. They are protected by making women dress so they are covered from head to toe. It is also practiced in the most ultra orthodox (chasidic) communities of Judaism where women dress in a fashion to cover themselves and with head coverings. And you will find this to a small degree in Christianity.
Both Islam and ultra orthodoxy (chasidim) also practice gender separation to keep men from having to interact with women they are not related to.
Then they say it is necessary because it is mandated from G-d.
There is a belief that men somehow because they have stronger sexual urges they somehow need to be protected. They are protected by making women dress so they are covered from head to toe. It is also practiced in the most ultra orthodox (chasidic) communities of Judaism where women dress in a fashion to cover themselves and with head coverings. And you will find this to a small degree in Christianity.
Both Islam and ultra orthodoxy (chasidim) also practice gender separation to keep men from having to interact with women they are not related to.
Then they say it is necessary because it is mandated from G-d.
TY
But this is where I have a problem. As a male and even when I was xian, married or single, if a women dressed sexy, I would not go out and rape her as if she was asking for it. That idea is ludicrous. Sure men have higher sexual urges, as a young man, it does not take much to get aroused. There are still laws one has to adhere to. Rape as far as I know is not a crime of passion/sexual but a violent crime. It used to carry the death penalty here once upon a time. Rape is not allowed anywhere in the world but it does appear that in muslim countries, girls raped, the girl is as much to blame if not more than the obviously more stronger male. We hear of raped girls getting stoned but never the males getting stoned.
When I had dealings with Saudi businessmen, in the office the girls were asked not to wear jeans but these dudes could not keep their eyes off them even in dresses. Of course you could see the outline of their boobs and that is where their focus was on. We had a few (attractive) female programmers and they were there to see the operations before awarding the contract. In the eye wanderings you could see their embarrassment with all the oogling. I left the company before the contract was awarded but the guys I managed had some interesting stories to tell of their stay in Saudi.
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