how could you change god's words ? (punished, contradictions, Christ, religion)

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by sukrill

i would also like to let you know that there's probably many anti-Islam sites, and false information but when you don't research the true Islamic sites then your only playing one side and not being fair in looking into what both sides have to say.

Are you not representing the other side? I am slamming it from the other side and logic.

IE being close minded. i know that you have never read the Qu'ran and i also know that you don't know much about the religion itself, you just know what you've read on the internet, some youtube videos, and you think you know it all but i gotta tell you, like i said before you got it all wrong and i know because i practice the religion.

Well I guess then thise scholars that left were not true muslims then? Same BS and the xians and utterly predictable.

if a doctor who has been in the medical field and went to medical school tells you "this is what's wrong with you" your not going to tell him "You don't know what your talking about! I know more about being a doctor than you" and you have never even taken a medical course. never even looked into it. this is how dumb it sounds when someone tries to tell me i don't know about my own religion that i practice and they claim to know more than i do about what i practice... give it a rest man, I'm not denying theres some bad muslims out there but i am saying that you can't judge a religion based on a group of people.

Well there are more bad muslims than bad xians and the xians are not going around lopping peoples heads off, neither are the jews and those literal laws are in both their bibles.

Your doctor analogy fails because I can choose many different doctors, there are specialists and their certification usually hangs in their rooms, I can further research their training their pass rate and their success rate treating other patients. I can get a second opinion etc. I know a doctor has to study at least 7 years, has 3 years in a hospital, and specialists are around 10 years. Preachers get their diplomas in a matter of two years or so.

you gotta go to the source to know for sure and that would also be you being open minded and playing fair. because at this point what ive tried explaining things to you but it's not that your not understanding it, your just refusing to listen and your refusing to understand... so i just hope that you research the religion for what it is and you will see that it's nothing that you thought it was...

So far, my research confirms my thinking. The "real" muslim sites are just filled with garbage and the folk that run them are not literate in English and rely on translators who are also not very good.

[sukrill]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Are you not representing the other side? I am slamming it from the other side and logic.

Well I guess then thise scholars that left were not true muslims then? Same BS and the xians and utterly predictable.

Well there are more bad muslims than bad xians and the xians are not going around lopping peoples heads off, neither are the jews and those literal laws are in both their bibles.

Your doctor analogy fails because I can choose many different doctors, there are specialists and their certification usually hangs in their rooms, I can further research their training their pass rate and their success rate treating other patients. I can get a second opinion etc. I know a doctor has to study at least 7 years, has 3 years in a hospital, and specialists are around 10 years. Preachers get their diplomas in a matter of two years or so.


So far, my research confirms my thinking. The "real" muslim sites are just filled with garbage and the folk that run them are not literate in English and rely on translators who are also not very good.

well u think what u want. whatever makes you happy i guess, even if thats ignorance....

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by sukrill

well u think what u want. whatever makes you happy i guess, even if thats ignorance....

Not ignorance, reality!

[Walter Greenspan]

Originally Posted by sukrill

no offense at all but if there are reported miracles that jesus christ, pbuh, performed, and you do not accept it then isnt that as ignorant as for example an atheist saying moses did not perform these "reported" miracles. how is it that you are sure that Christ, pbuh, never performed miracles?

First, what Moishe (Moses) did was witnessed by several hundred thousand people.


Second, there are no contemporaneous reports of any miracles being performed by Jesus of Nazareth. The reports that were written were written many years later and were part of an effort to promote Jesus of Nazareth as being something that he was not.

If you have the time, you may want to read "The Passover Plot".

[sukrill]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Not ignorance, reality!

u already admitted that you have not taken a look at what the religion of Islam really is. meaning your close minded. you also have admitted that you will not look into the actual religion and not what they portray on the anti-islam sites, tv, pics, etc. meaning your ignorant. you choose to ignore the facts. thats reality.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by sukrill

u already admitted that you have not taken a look at what the religion of Islam really is. meaning your close minded. you also have admitted that you will not look into the actual religion and not what they portray on the anti-islam sites, tv, pics, etc. meaning your ignorant. you choose to ignore the facts. thats reality.

Refuting your claims with logic by an ex muslim

Muslims can't have it both ways:
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and have a book that obligates them to have an in-depth understanding of an Ancient Dialect of Arabic, which very few people have. (this is,after all, the foundational argument made by them when you criticize it, so by default HAS to be the foundation of accepting it.)

They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and then say 'they are not muslims' whenever a muslim does something bad.

They can't both be the fastest growing religion and have over 300,000,000 illiterates who 'know the quran is perfect and true'.
(a contradiction)

Almost all of the increase in population is down to birth-rates, where children are indoctrinated by over-zealous parents into the Islamic faith; there are very few permanent exceptions.

The general rule in regards to Islam (in fact any religion) is that all it takes to be a part of it, is to call yourself one;
There seems to be absolutely no requirement in understanding the religion or following it to any extent from that point on.
For example: Only 1/10 Christians have ever even read the Bible (to absolutely ANY extent,I assume) yet still consider themselves Christians.

When you apply even the most BASIC necessities on a belief system (such as being able to read, being at an age to understand it, following the most basic of rules etc etc), the final population is reduced by upto 1/3 each time.

But I guess it is just a world wide conspiracy to discredit islam. Odd that the folk find so much evidence to suggest that it is in fact bad.

Strange that when discussing my thoughts on the religion with ex-muslims that actually have intimate knowledge of the religion, my conclusions match theirs 100%.

The only way I could truly understand your religion is to learn Arabic and more specific ancient Arabic. I have already said I am not prepared to do that to simply prove what I already know.

Your imams and their sites will obviously do exactly as you do, simply ignore what the rest of the world sees about your religion and the threat of what it might become if it gained total power, we fully understand that jihad is a call to arms to spread the faith. I invite you to do that.

Keep pissing off the west until they decide once and for all to end it with extreme prejudice, muslims would be interned and deported and where would that get you? They already did it to the Japanese in WW2.

While you expect us to buy into the notion of a peaceful religion, the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.

Xians and Jews are free to leave their faith and only be ostracized - there is no threat of death for leaving.

All your claims have been refuted.

There will be a video series coming up showing the plagiarisms of the qu'ran of the other two abrahamic faith's scriptures. I will post that when it is available.

[mescalero1]

I love watching when someone who accuses one group of being violent tells them to keep it up and see how their passive religion ends the other with extreme prejudice. What a joke. Israel has been killing people in the name of god for years, just like the Christian based US government. We go out in the name of "freedom" to sovereign countries and attack them for fabricated reasons. If you don't understand it, destroy it. But hey, that's the way we have been doing it 200 years. And others long before that.

Now, as far as the original topic, how could you change gods words, well, no one knows for sure where these words came from. But it is interesting to note that the Torah's Genesis is almost based completely on the book Theogony by Hesiod. A lot of notable parallels are seen here. Take gods name, for instance YHWH. In Theogony, there are seven gods (like the seven days of creation) and each of the gods names correlate with what happened on each day of creation. The seventh animate god, Zeus, was also known as Jove. God in the Torah is Jo-ve. Maybe there was a reason you were not supposed to speak the name of god because if you said it, you would know that it sounded just like Zeus' name, Jove.

There are other more profound parallels, the addition of "et" at the very first sentence which changes the order of how things happened. In Theogony, the heavens and earth created the gods. In the Torah, the god(s) created the heavens and earth. Yes, there is a plural "god(s)" in the Torah. If you take the "et" from the beginning line, the Torah reads "In the beginning, the heavens and earth created the gods. Food for thought.

Anyway, hey, keep up the good work making Islam look bad while all the while ignoring the fact that in the name of western gods (YHWH, God, Christ) we go out and assassinate people to put people of our beliefs in power and worse. Spanish Inquisition ring a bell??? Funny post.

[sukrill]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Refuting your claims with logic by an ex muslim

Muslims can't have it both ways:
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and have a book that obligates them to have an in-depth understanding of an Ancient Dialect of Arabic, which very few people have. (this is,after all, the foundational argument made by them when you criticize it, so by default HAS to be the foundation of accepting it.)

any ex muslim will say something bad about islam. just like any ex atheist converting to islam will say things bad about being an atheist. i could post videos but thats just a waste of time and not a valid argument.

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and then say 'they are not muslims' whenever a muslim does something bad.

They can't both be the fastest growing religion and have over 300,000,000 illiterates who 'know the quran is perfect and true'.
(a contradiction)

Islam can't be the religion of peace and you think they're all terrorist (a contradiction)

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Almost all of the increase in population is down to birth-rates, where children are indoctrinated by over-zealous parents into the Islamic faith; there are very few permanent exceptions.

The general rule in regards to Islam (in fact any religion) is that all it takes to be a part of it, is to call yourself one;
There seems to be absolutely no requirement in understanding the religion or following it to any extent from that point on.
For example: Only 1/10 Christians have ever even read the Bible (to absolutely ANY extent,I assume) yet still consider themselves Christians.

so if you say "I'm a Muslim" that makes you a Muslim? that's false. you have proven several times already you do not know anything about Islam but I'm going to keep reading...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

When you apply even the most BASIC necessities on a belief system (such as being able to read, being at an age to understand it, following the most basic of rules etc etc), the final population is reduced by upto 1/3 each time.

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

But I guess it is just a world wide conspiracy to discredit islam. Odd that the folk find so much evidence to suggest that it is in fact bad.

Strange that when discussing my thoughts on the religion with ex-muslims that actually have intimate knowledge of the religion, my conclusions match theirs 100%.

that is strange huh? an anti-islamic person talking to an anti-islamic person and they agree on things? wow, who would have guessed it? its funny because when i discuss my thoughts with other muslims our thoughts match 100% too! who would have guessed!?

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

The only way I could truly understand your religion is to learn Arabic and more specific ancient Arabic. I have already said I am not prepared to do that to simply prove what I already know.

o that's right because you haven't even read the one in english yet.... too bad everyone who understands the religion speaks ancient arabic... o wait i don't speak ancient arabic and i understand it! hey! this means you can too!

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Your imams and their sites will obviously do exactly as you do, simply ignore what the rest of the world sees about your religion and the threat of what it might become if it gained total power, we fully understand that jihad is a call to arms to spread the faith. I invite you to do that.

o man... the "jihad" card... jihad is not holy war... i've explained this soooo many times...instead of me explaining it i would like you to show me where in the quran does it say this... ya... just read the quran and show me the verse...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Keep pissing off the west until they decide once and for all to end it with extreme prejudice, muslims would be interned and deported and where would that get you? They already did it to the Japanese in WW2.

I'm not pissing off anyone... people are just pissing themselves off i guess...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

While you expect us to buy into the notion of a peaceful religion, the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.

Xians and Jews are free to leave their faith and only be ostracized - there is no threat of death for leaving.

man if that's true then how are you even talking to ex-muslims? (a contradiction)

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

All your claims have been refuted.

o ya because i've asked you to show me verses that prove what your claims are and you have shown me.... 0 verses...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

There will be a video series coming up showing the plagiarisms of the qu'ran of the other two abrahamic faith's scriptures. I will post that when it is available.

I'm sure you'll be first in line! I'm sure its the same claims... the "jihad" card, "oppressing" women... same old stuff that's been proven inaccurate so many times... but hey as long as people keep buying it they'll say anything!

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by sukrill

any ex muslim will say something bad about islam. just like any ex atheist converting to islam will say things bad about being an atheist. i could post videos but thats just a waste of time and not a valid argument.

You conveniently skip the stats that clearly state that 75% converts leave within 3 years.

Islam can't be the religion of peace and you think they're all terrorist (a contradiction)

I never said terrorist, I was referring to public mutilation, beheadings, stoning adulterers to death in public, shooting women in the back of the head with an AK47, flogging etc.

so if you say "I'm a Muslim" that makes you a Muslim? that's false. you have proven several times already you do not know anything about Islam but I'm going to keep reading...

Folk can self identify as muslim w/o being literate, it is the same for the stats of xians that self identify as xian but have never read the bible for themselves because they too are illiterate or lazy.

that is strange huh? an anti-islamic person talking to an anti-islamic person and they agree on things? wow, who would have guessed it? its funny because when i discuss my thoughts with other muslims our thoughts match 100% too! who would have guessed!?

How about and anti theist of one religion having the same views as an anti theist of another religion. That is what it boils down to. You accused me of not knowing Islam, I posed my questions to them and they gave me exactly what I had already said in this thread.

o that's right because you haven't even read the one in english yet.... too bad everyone who understands the religion speaks ancient arabic... o wait i don't speak ancient arabic and i understand it! hey! this means you can too!

Well then you are not a true muslim by your own inference that the qu'ran cannot be wrong as everyone can read the qu'ran in Arabic. Thus you are making clims yourself that you cannot substantiate.

o man... the "jihad" card... jihad is not holy war... i've explained this soooo many times...instead of me explaining it i would like you to show me where in the quran does it say this... ya... just read the quran and show me the verse...

I am sure if I took the effort, I could cite the verses that talk about killing the infidels, moreso the verses that infer killing anyone that would insult your beloved allah pr prophet mohammed. Where a muslim state has blasphemy laws you cannot say squat about the religion

man if that's true then how are you even talking to ex-muslims? (a contradiction)

No it is not, these folk live in the westernized civilized countries like the UK and USA, some are from muslim states but have to be very careful. The ones exposing the lies of islam on YouTube or websites, continually get death threats. I cannot post examples here as they are too vile and lewd.

o ya because i've asked you to show me verses that prove what your claims are and you have shown me.... 0 verses...

Why do I need to post verses, the claim of the fastest is refuted because as I originally stated it being to migration and higher birth rates, turned out to be a fact and what I found out that I did not know, is that 75% leave withing e years, hence the claim is refuted. You tried to infer folk are converting because islam is the true religion, turns out you actually lied to us.

I'm sure you'll be first in line! I'm sure its the same claims... the "jihad" card, "oppressing" women... same old stuff that's been proven inaccurate so many times... but hey as long as people keep buying it they'll say anything!

No I have no idea what it will contain as I am not making the video. An ex muslim that actually reads arabic and knows the bible and the torah will be doing a series. That is known as a scholar, or someone that has intimate knowledge of all three faiths texts.

[sukrill]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

You conveniently skip the stats that clearly state that 75% converts leave within 3 years.
I never said terrorist, I was referring to public mutilation, beheadings, stoning adulterers to death in public, shooting women in the back of the head with an AK47, flogging etc.

your right not one of the words you used fall under the category of terrorism... you just never said the word "terrorist"... but you use pictures of terrorist, books written by a terrorist group... but your right.. you never actually said the word "terrorist"... you just make all the claims muslims are terrorist... sure... and 75% of converts to Islam leave within the first 3 years? it wouldn't be growing much then huh?... but its the 2nd largest religion in the world, i guess "You conveniently skip the stats that clearly state" that...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Folk can self identify as muslim w/o being literate, it is the same for the stats of xians that self identify as xian but have never read the bible for themselves because they too are illiterate or lazy.

your right, most Christians do not read the bible and I'm sure there are some people out there that are illiterate that are Muslim but what a big surprise, you don't have to know how to read to believe everything. I mean take a look in the mirror, you have not read the Quran and you may not be illiterate but you claim to know everything about it when you haven't even read it... hmmm...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

How about and anti theist of one religion having the same views as an anti theist of another religion. That is what it boils down to. You accused me of not knowing Islam, I posed my questions to them and they gave me exactly what I had already said in this thread.

you've posted some pictures and made the same accusations that are always made... the same ones that have been explained hundreds of times... and every question you've had i gave a legitimate answer to. however your not really asking about Islam, your asking about the people overseas who terrorize people...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Well then you are not a true muslim by your own inference that the qu'ran cannot be wrong as everyone can read the qu'ran in Arabic. Thus you are making clims yourself that you cannot substantiate.

Everyone can read the Qur'an in whatever language they speak. it's called a translation...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

I am sure if I took the effort, I could cite the verses that talk about killing the infidels, moreso the verses that infer killing anyone that would insult your beloved allah pr prophet mohammed. Where a muslim state has blasphemy laws you cannot say squat about the religion

well you've yet to do so and you just basically said that you have never read the Qur'an meaning you know nothing about the religion because you need to read the book to know anything about the religion yet you claim to know everything about the religion... or all you need to know when in fact you know nothing. that's like saying you know all about being a doctor without even picking up a medical book. you know what happens when you don't read the medical books and you listen to other people who have not read the books, you get the wrong information... its all starting to make sense now...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

No it is not, these folk live in the westernized civilized countries like the UK and USA, some are from muslim states but have to be very careful. The ones exposing the lies of islam on YouTube or websites, continually get death threats. I cannot post examples here as they are too vile and lewd.

how do you even know what these "ex-muslims" are saying is true? a person i know that actually lives in Cali goes on local talk shows saying all the "bad things" about Islam and she says she was a Muslim but for how long was she a Muslim?... 2 months... and she's on TV saying she knows all about the religion.. well that was fast. but hey whatever agrees with you is proof right?...

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Why do I need to post verses, the claim of the fastest is refuted because as I originally stated it being to migration and higher birth rates, turned out to be a fact and what I found out that I did not know, is that 75% leave withing e years, hence the claim is refuted. You tried to infer folk are converting because islam is the true religion, turns out you actually lied to us.

because when you claim Islam is bad, you have to show proof of the religion being bad, not people being bad... if a Christian does something bad do i think the Christian religion is bad? no i think thats just a bad person because it wouldn't be right to base an entire religion on a single person or group of people... example, a church was given the right to protest against gays at soldiers funerals... i think THOSE people are evil for that, but im not running around saying all churches do this... thats unfair... and coming from a "fair" atheist i would think you would agree but all you've been doing this whole time is proving how unfair you truly are...

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Originally Posted by SeekerSA

No I have no idea what it will contain as I am not making the video. An ex muslim that actually reads arabic and knows the bible and the torah will be doing a series. That is known as a scholar, or someone that has intimate knowledge of all three faiths texts.

A scholar? or someone that calls himself a scholar? im pretty sure if this ex-atheist went up against a TRUE islamic scholar he would be shut down pretty quick. because it's hard to prove something wrong when all you have are claims and no proof.... he reads arabic and has read the bible and the torah... that makes him a scholar? im sure theres many people that have done so and i don't consider them scholars... but hey if that's your definition of a scholar, more power to you....