how could you change god's words ? (heaven, verses, miracle, Jesus Christ)
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Judaism 101 describes what's in the Bible, or, if you prefer, the Jewish Bible.
Ok, this is what I got from the last two messages. The old testament is the Jewish Bible but when you add the new testament it is the Christian Bible, correct?
I just never heard the two names, take care.
Ok, this is what I got from the last two messages. The old testament is the Jewish Bible but when you add the new testament it is the Christian Bible, correct?
I just never heard the two names, take care.
Two points:
1. It is offensive to traditional Jews to use the term "Old Testament" as this indicates that the Bible has been replaced or superseded (supersessionism) by a "New Testament", the Christian Bible.
Traditional Judaism does not accept that the Bible, or if you prefer, the Jewish Bible, has been replaced or superseded by the Christian Bible.
2. There are the many differences between the Christian version of the Jewish Bible and the Jewish version of the Jewish Bible:
According to Rabbi Marc Gellman of G-d Squad fame, "One of the most important things to understand when quoting the Bible (the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Testament) is that it was not written in English. This means you're not only reading a translation from Hebrew or Greek, but you're also often reading an interpretation masquerading as a translation."
As an example of this "interpretation masquerading as a translation", further quoting Rabbi Gellman, "The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (and the text used by Jerome to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century), famously translates the Hebrew verse 'and behold a young woman shall give birth' as, 'and behold a virgin shall give birth.' The Hebrew word for virgin is betula, but the word used in Isaiah 7 is alma, which just means a young woman. Obviously, if there was a verse in the Hebrew Bible predicting that a virgin would give birth, this would indeed be a stunning prediction and proof text of Jesus' virgin birth. Unfortunately, for Christians who want this to be the verse, it is not the verse."
Originally Posted by Squall-lionheart We are not hiding anything here ... in fact you are !!! and i will prove it to you ! Since you seems to know about it .. could you please till me what does it takes to implementation the rule of stoning on someone ?? The answer will show that either you are talking of ignorance or you simply hiding half of the truth !! Thank you
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA Perhaps you should look up what is meant by "hiding behind weak platitudes". I am sure there is an English to Arabic translator on google
With that replay of yours i dont need to look up what does "hiding behind weak platitudes" mean !! You just made a perfect... perfect ... example of it . As i expected .. you avoided the answer case closed ... thank you
Last edited by squall-lionheart; 03-19-2011 at 04:11 AM..
Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Then why can you not post like normal people do? Bolding an entire post does not make you assertive
Its just my way of posting !! I like to bold my post .. its a free forum
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
And 99.9999% of these are already muslim IOW have migrated from the ME and are brought up with the tradition of the religion. Oh I know there are converts like Cat Stevens or whatever his arabic new name is now.
99.9999% ??!! your sources please
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
I tell you this because Latin is still the language the RCC priests chant their prayers in. You claimed that the qu'ran is chanted in Arabic so that is where the similarities are.
You miss the point here .. you can worship allah in any language you want .. but when it comes to Quran you have to read it in arabic & when you said that this fact mean that my religion will have no appeal to English speaking people i replay You should say it to 6 to 8 million Muslims in America & to 1.5 million Muslims in the UK because most of them does not speak arabic originally & to hundreds of millions of muslims who dont speak arabic as first language yet they can read quran very well ..thats why i told you that you should asked them how could they do that ?!!! Do i make myself clear now ?
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
99% migrants or offspring of migrants. Tell me I am wrong.
Ok ... you are wrong That 99% is going to need some Sources to back it up .
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Natural Attrition is the reason for the decline in xianity and the inverse is true for islam. IOW you are out breeding the xians and xian youth are leaving the faith in hordes, that is why you you are the fastest growing religion, however the majority of this growth is still in the ME or should I say traditional muslim countries rather.
Are you for reall ?? So you are saying that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the muslim countries ?!!!!!!! Its like saying that Buddhism or lamaism is the fastest growing religion in the tibet !!!! Wooo ... i am i am speechless man !!!
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
It's about the facts you are trying to distort.
No ... its about yourself ??
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WereI even remotely interested in learning
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learning arabic will be the last thing on my mind
So as loong as its about your personal opinion its cool with me !!
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA
Not anger, just disgust and outrage what your religion actually does to others in the ME and Africa. It is barbaric and archaic. At least xianity has gone through some reformation and modernization, islam is still stuck about 400 years behind.
To deny the atrocities is foolhardy. There is no moral outrage ny you lot what they do there, just that they are bad people. Well we only see the bad peoples example of your qu'ran taken literally to the extreme. Your religion is no less a way of mind and population control than all the other man made religions.
The xians have had their crazies too but they usually oust them or talk against them. Never seen one xian on this forum in support of the Westboro church, they at least voice their outrage and it is on all the forums.
Only where there are secular laws in place are you forced to adopt a more moderate stance on islam, it is the same here in SA, they are all moderate. That is what we need to see happen to islam all over the world.
There you go again !!! Anger .. anger & more anger !! I told you .. its not good for your health
Last edited by squall-lionheart; 03-19-2011 at 05:57 AM..
Muslims can't have it both ways:
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and have a book that obligates them to have an in-depth understanding of an Ancient Dialect of Arabic, which very few people have. (this is,after all, the foundational argument made by them when you criticize it, so by default HAS to be the foundation of accepting it.)
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and then say 'they are not muslims' whenever a muslim does something bad.
They can't both be the fastest growing religion and have over 300,000,000 illiterates who 'know the quran is perfect and true'.
(a contradiction)
Almost all of the increase in population is down to birth-rates, where children are indoctrinated by over-zealous parents into the Islamic faith; there are very few permanent exceptions.
The general rule in regards to Islam (in fact any religion) is that all it takes to be a part of it, is to call yourself one;
There seems to be absolutely no requirement in understanding the religion or following it to any extent from that point on.
For example: Only 1/10 Christians have ever even read the Bible (to absolutely ANY extent,I assume) yet still consider themselves Christians.
When you apply even the most BASIC necessities on a belief system (such as being able to read, being at an age to understand it, following the most basic of rules etc etc), the final population is reduced by upto 1/3 each time.
Judaism holds that these "reported" miracles never occurred.
no offense at all but if there are reported miracles that jesus christ, pbuh, performed, and you do not accept it then isnt that as ignorant as for example an atheist saying moses did not perform these "reported" miracles. how is it that you are sure that Christ, pbuh, never performed miracles?
Muslims can't have it both ways:
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and have a book that obligates them to have an in-depth understanding of an Ancient Dialect of Arabic, which very few people have. (this is,after all, the foundational argument made by them when you criticize it, so by default HAS to be the foundation of accepting it.)
They can't both be the fastest growing religion in the world and then say 'they are not muslims' whenever a muslim does something bad.
They can't both be the fastest growing religion and have over 300,000,000 illiterates who 'know the quran is perfect and true'.
(a contradiction)
Almost all of the increase in population is down to birth-rates, where children are indoctrinated by over-zealous parents into the Islamic faith; there are very few permanent exceptions.
The general rule in regards to Islam (in fact any religion) is that all it takes to be a part of it, is to call yourself one;
There seems to be absolutely no requirement in understanding the religion or following it to any extent from that point on.
For example: Only 1/10 Christians have ever even read the Bible (to absolutely ANY extent,I assume) yet still consider themselves Christians.
When you apply even the most BASIC necessities on a belief system (such as being able to read, being at an age to understand it, following the most basic of rules etc etc), the final population is reduced by upto 1/3 each time.
your just not getting it... but hey thats ok. theres two kinds of people. open minded and close minded. proving to you what i have already and you not admitting that "you know what some of what he's saying makes sense" and instead just trying to argue a point that thats actually pointless, i mean saying anything to you is a waste of time... just remember your can't always be right and you don't know everything. hopefully one day you can judge people in Islam for what they believe and not for what a small group of them does... hopefully, like i said before you wake up from this dreamworld where "your always right and everyone else is wrong"...
i would also like to let you know that there's probably many anti-Islam sites, and false information but when you don't research the true Islamic sites then your only playing one side and not being fair in looking into what both sides have to say. IE being close minded. i know that you have never read the Qu'ran and i also know that you don't know much about the religion itself, you just know what you've read on the internet, some youtube videos, and you think you know it all but i gotta tell you, like i said before you got it all wrong and i know because i practice the religion. if a doctor who has been in the medical field and went to medical school tells you "this is what's wrong with you" your not going to tell him "You don't know what your talking about! I know more about being a doctor than you" and you have never even taken a medical course. never even looked into it. this is how dumb it sounds when someone tries to tell me i don't know about my own religion that i practice and they claim to know more than i do about what i practice... give it a rest man, I'm not denying theres some bad muslims out there but i am saying that you can't judge a religion based on a group of people. you gotta go to the source to know for sure and that would also be you being open minded and playing fair. because at this point what ive tried explaining things to you but it's not that your not understanding it, your just refusing to listen and your refusing to understand... so i just hope that you research the religion for what it is and you will see that it's nothing that you thought it was...
your just not getting it... but hey thats ok. theres two kinds of people. open minded and close minded. proving to you what i have already and you not admitting that "you know what some of what he's saying makes sense" and instead just trying to argue a point that thats actually pointless, i mean saying anything to you is a waste of time... just remember your can't always be right and you don't know everything. hopefully one day you can judge people in Islam for what they believe and not for what a small group of them does... hopefully, like i said before you wake up from this dreamworld where "your always right and everyone else is wrong"...
Who says I am right? You are far too sensitive. And yes I have to judge islam by all its followers, it is not a pretty picture and the claims of the fastest biggest is merely an appeal to BS for your own believers.
You piqued my interest so I joined an ex-muslim community. They at least make sense and answer my questions because they mostly Brit and USA ex muslims.
The garbage of mulsim apologetic sites differ little to xian apologetic sites, facts are not important and the truth is a victim of both.
You should not accuse me of being closed minded, you are obviously not open to criticism and expect us who disagree to simply keep quiet. You do not have the benefit of the fear factor to leverage.
Your claim to awesomeness has to address the bad in your religion which is more prevalent than in the other two. They at least have evolved somewhat. The Jews have a better interpretation as theirs has no hell like yours and the xian faith does.
Oh and stats show a much smaller growth in new converts as you folk do not report those new converts that leave. Nothing like the 265% growth rate some of your sites claim.
When I posed the question of the actual growth to the ex muslim community, they said exactly what I was saying wrt to higher birth rates.
Here is another ex-muslim's opinion
(1) This is just evangelical propaganda for Islam which views itself as having an imperial mission to convert the world.
(2) High birth rates and high immigration rates account for the growth of Islam.
(3) Islamic dawah is a triumphalist, imperialist message, and it boasts of converts, using them for propaganda in the pursuit of Islamic evangelism.
(4) Islam operates a policy of oppression and death for those who criticize and leave Islam, unlike other religions and belief systems. Hence, Islam kills those who leave it whilst using propaganda and falsehoods to convince people to be a part of its tribe. When the death taboo against leaving is broken, Islam crumbles in the face of the free conscience of humans, just as every other religion does.
(5) Billions of dollars are spent in the pursuit of Islamic propaganda for dawah purposes and prosletysation - when you look at the amount of money spent its actually pathetic how few people convert to Islam.
(6) There are extremely high rates of converts to Islam leaving the religion once they find out the truth about it, and not the dis ingenuousness buttered on them during dawah.
Ultimately, Islam's claims about the speed of growth of Islam are part of a deeply felt inferiority complex fired by the confusion, fear and delusional denial felt at the lack of hegemony in the modern world that has been promised to Muslims by Allah and Mohammad. Hence the constant rhetoric and empty hot air referring to size, rate of growth, and hysterical boasts about the erection of the tent of Islam over all others.
And
Much of Islamic growth stems from high Muslim fertility and inter-marriage conversion. Almost a third of the Muslim women of the population are kept out of the workforce in Islamic countries and are encouraged to carry out the domestic role. As a direct result, they often see perceive their roles as nurturers & have babies far faster than the West can abort theirs!
Men & women are also strongly encouraged to convert their spouses upon marriage or face the potential threat of ostracization from their communities. Consider that in 1950 there were three times as many people in Britain as in Iran. By 1995, the population of Iran had overtaken that of Britain and is now forecast to be 50 per cent higher by 2050.
And
According to Muslim sources, Islam is losing 6 million Muslims in Africa to Christianity every year and overall is standing at about 1.8% growth per year, with world population growth of 1.12% per year. Its conversion rate is downgraded by the fact that, according to Professor Ilyas Ba Yunus, 75% of new converts leave Islam after 3 years.
There is no cultural divide with atheists, ex-muslims are very much the same as ex-christians. Their objections are identical. The only difference, they get death threats where ex-christians do not.
As one guys said, "islam has a no returns policy"
I see you edited:
Quote:
i know that you have never read the Qu'ran
That is correct, I have to learn Arabic first otherwise I may not get the full gist of it, there is no use for that languge at my age and where I live.
The translations all appear to be in error much like the xian bible is wrt their interpretation of the Judaic texts.
I really do not have to read the Qu'ran, I can ask the folk I have met because they at least appear educated and can converse in English quite eloquently.
I do not need to go to apologetic sites as I mentioned earlier, they all exaggerate the "facts"
Everything a muslim has posted about the awesomeness of their religion can be easily refuted, it has been done is being done and will continue being done.
Oh and one of my earlier statements of when the oil runs out, guess what, those guys have the exact same opinion.
It does not take rocket science or intimate knowledge to see though the BS of the youngest abrahamic religions.
Last edited by SeekerSA; 03-20-2011 at 12:32 AM..
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