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What evidence do you have that the universe 'came to be' to begin with? What evidence do you have that says it wasn't always there in some form or other?
Do you not see what you are doing? You are (1) noting that the universe exists and then (2) jumping to the completely unfounded conclusion that there must have been a time when it didn't exist and therefore, (3) it must have been created. That (those) conclusion has no evidence to support it.
Nicely put, Rafius. But actually and technically, I must correct you: it's "those" conclusions. Plural. They make up all sorts of them, all based on each other, using information they gleaned from modern deductive logic!
Those endless serial denials of the scientific deductive process are evident with theists everywhere, uttered as if on command from a hidden God. And yet, here we have a totally unsubstantiated Christian idea (one that actually utilizes a concept initially posited by science...) that it may not have existed prior to a singularity, and they run with that play.
Some of the alternates, or more correctly, of the many other alternatives, is that it already existed either in another dimension or in an entirely different form or universal "time zone". That entire set of options, plus those endless possibilites we cannot even begin to imagine with our limited IQ, is uniformly ignored. I often wonder why?
If, as a culture we purposefully choose to selectively limit potential options, what then can we ever hope to achieve in our advancement of philosophical understandings?
Well, perhaps it has to do with the Christian faith's singularly fanciful but equally fervently-preferred version of this world's beginnings. It's already pre-based on the findings of science, but theists arbitrarily choose when and where they selectively want it to start and end!
Their amazing lack of imagination or open conceptualization is startling.
They have evidence that the BB was the start of the universe that we see today. The BB says nothing of what was there before. Where is your evidence that there was once a time when the universe did not exist in some form or other?
Are you serious here? How is postulating some "Universe before the Universe", one we almost by definition can have no evidence of, or what have you any more verifiable than postulating extradimensional lab-scientists or Eternals or some form of God?
It would possibly be more scientific valid to say that as the BB is the beginning of space-time there is no "before" and the question is meaningless.
If you prefer a Universe that exists "forever" to even that answer, okay. Find some evidence, any evidence, of material things before the Big Bang. It might be amusing to see you try something that, so far as I know, no physicists has actually managed.
Which is your right.
The situation we find ourselves in is closer to throwing a deck of cards in the air and having a royal flush drop into our palm. .
Again, you are attributing to much awe to the outcome we did get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
It's fine if you find the "I don't need an answer" answer okay, but I don't.
It's not that we don't need or want an answer. Everrone would like to know the answer. I think where a lot of us have a problem is with people who say..... "we don't have an answer, so lets make one up until we do"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Nice example. But bear in mind, somebody made the cards and somebody tossed them in the air.
And you have evidence of that I suppose? I'm all ears.
{ I found it to be quite ironic when later you asked northstar for evidence that nobody had to make the cards and throw them, when you have failed to provide evidence that someone did }
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Shall we save that question for another thread.
May I ask why? Don't bother. Many times the question has been posed and never an answer given that I have seen. Perhaps you would like to reserve the question for another thread because you don't have the answer, which is fine. Just don't pretend as if you do.
Umm, I posed a question. If you want to sidetrack the discussions (a tactic, I have seen all to often in these sorts of discussion) fine, but I won't bite.
I'm not sidetracking the discussion. It was YOU that introduced a 'creator'. It is fair to ask you where that creator came from.
You are posing the question "what are the odds that the Universe, with all of its matter, energy, life, physical laws just came to be all on its own. Without a creator/designer."
You have concluded that there was once a time when the universe didn't exist but now it does and that the only way that could have happened is by means of a 'creator' (god). You are doing this without providing any evidence whatsoever that there was a time when the universe did not exist. You have 'jumped the gun pal'. You need to start at base #1. Provide evidence that there was a time when the universe did not exist. Provide evidence that there is no possibility that it could have existed in some shape or form different to what we see today - and then we can discuss how it came to be from nothing.
May I ask why? Don't bother. Many times the question has been posed and never an answer given that I have seen. Perhaps you would like to reserve the question for another thread because you don't have the answer, which is fine. Just don't pretend as if you do.
Oh I have the answer, but see... here is the deal: when faced with the question of Origins the atheist, rather than address the question turns to the old trick of turning the tables and tries to get the theist to explain God issues. To which I say here and now, nope. This thread is about asking the atheist to explian how they think the universe just came to be sans a Creator. Simple as that. So whatcha got?
I'm not sidetracking the discussion. It was YOU that introduced a 'creator'. It is fair to ask you where that creator came from.
.
Only if you want to avoid the question posed in the OP. Which seems to be the case.
The point of the discussion is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
That the Universe, with all of its matter, energy, life, physical laws just came to be all on its own. Without a creator/designer. Just look at how an atom is constructed and how it works. Its properties.
Look at DNA. Made up of said atoms. It contains a code that determines what characteristics a life form will have. And then how it figures into the process of evolution, this adaptive process by which humans have come to be. I could go on about mathematics (how it seems to describle most everything) gravity (and how it is a property of matter), time and space and so forth.
And then we build this thinking machines call computers that figure stuff out for.
So what are the odds? From the Big Bang, each event working or not. Having a 1000 events all work in a row. A million.
So obviously the universe is here as are we. That proves nothing.
To me the odds of the Universe coming to be (and humans existing) by chance or simply on it own are...astronomical! Can anyone explain how the universe just came to be? On its own. No outside help.
Now if you want to discuss the origins of God, start a thread.
The odds have been calculated for the chance of just one protein molucule being formed by chance. Just the random coming together of the things in the correct order to create just one.
The calculated odds are one to a number that is so great it's not even understandable. It's a larger number than some other scientists figure the total number of atoms in the universe is.
Now, if you want to start to think about the chances of DNA being created by chance, well good luck to you.
The evolutionists like to say that the discovery of DNA helps their theory but in fact it destroys the theory. Darwin thought that simple single celled organisms were just that, simple. WE now know that they are extremely complex on a DNA level, just the ability to reproduce it's self is something that could not happen by chance even if tried 10 to the uttermost power.
I feel like I should reiterate that the burden of proof is on the theist, not the atheist, as the theist makes twopositive claims here (god exists and god created the universe). Atheism is the default position. Atheists do not need to provide evidence that god does not exist or that god did not create the universe. Both of those are starting assumptions based upon our lack of knowledge of how the universe began (if it began at all) and the lack of evidence for the existence of a god. Theists are the ones claiming knowledge on the universe's origin. So, Mr5150, please provide us with some evidence for:
1) God's existence.
2) God's creation of the universe.
Until you do those things, I don't see a reason why atheists should have to provide evidence that answers your questions.
Yup' you're right, Mr. 5150. My apologies. I get carried away when I see "the red blanket in front of the bull" sort of "They ain't no way in hell any of this happened by chance!" stuff, so I sorta went onto my fabulous Baker Boyz argument. But still, it does have some minor relevance, don't you think?
As in: if that durned tricky DNA can have occurred by the chance interaction of stuff to make dem tricky lil' amino acids, and then those all danced around to become (and how unlikely is this?) DNA molecules. No 6 of them, not 3, but 4 (and sometimes 5). All at the lowest level of probability possible, or so I'm often scolded.
So why not the same sort of curious and, to us simple-minded humans at least, inexplicable process for the creation of the universe? You know, some sort of energy coherency, string, colliding wavefronts or ulterifuntillium co-adherencies (I made that one up, but who's to know fur sur? I'm just sayin'...).
So yeppers; such highly unlikely, highly chancy things can happen and apparently did with the formation of the Universe that one lonely afternoon. Sans God.
There. Am I officially off the hook now? Soz I can sleep, perchance to dream?
here is the deal: when faced with the question of Origins the atheist, rather than address the question turns to the old trick of turning the tables and tries to get the theist to explain God issues. To which I say here and now, nope. This thread is about asking the atheist to explian how they think the universe just came to be sans a Creator. Simple as that.
When you sit down to read a book, do you start in the middle and work your way backward? No. You start at the beginning. When you sweep the floor do you start in the middle, sweep that up, and then go and sweep all the rest over top the area you've already swept? No. Likeways, when determining the origins of the universe, you start at the beginning. { implying a beginning exists } So...... Since you claim there is a God that created the Universe and that this God existed BEFORE the universe, it would only stand to reason that we determine the origins of God before we delve into the creation of the universe.
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It's like this.....
