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The point being missed by everyone is that reality EXISTS and WHATEVER is the source of its existence . . . ISGod to us puny participants in it, period! The myriad beliefs (or non-beliefs) ABOUTGod are NOT controlling.
Can't agree with that, Mystic. I'm betting that nearly all theists would tell you the "God" they believe in is a sentient, intelligent creator. That distinction is central to the discussion at hand, no?
Actually part of my intent is to address the athestic concept that something caused the universe to occur, but whatever it was, it sure ain't God...
As opposed to the theistic concept that whatever it actually was that created the universe, it HAD to have been God - even though there is no evidence (outside of our existence here in this universe) whatever to suggest that God even exists?
FWIW, I'm atheist. My opinion on the matter isn't that "...it sure ain't God...", it is simply that there is no evidence to suggest it *was* some sort of "God".
As opposed to the theistic concept that whatever it actually was that created the universe, it HAD to have been God - even though there is no evidence (outside of our existence here in this universe) whatever to suggest that God even exists.
More than that, it is pretty obvious that god is a human construct. Almost all cultures have "gods" that explain concepts that ancient people simply could not.
"Why does it rain? Oh, the Rain God is crying."
"Why doesn't it rain? We must have angered the Rain God! Quick, sacrifice a child to appease Him!"
It's obviously all man-made, irrational mythology.
Can't agree with that, Mystic. I'm betting that nearly all theists would tell you the "God" they believe in is a sentient, intelligent creator. That distinction is central to the discussion at hand, no?
I do not dispute the existence of any beliefs about God, Hooligan. But BELIEFS ABOUT God have no relevance to the existence of reality itself. We should never credit or discredit the existence of any phenomenon based on the absurd beliefs held about it. That something is the basis of our reality is undeniable . . . whatever it is . . . and that has sufficient power and scope relative to us to be God. Clearly your beliefs about God will differ enormously from others . . . but they do not change God at all. God is what God is . . . whatever God is.
The question is what caused the quantum fluctuation and why would it result with life as we know it?
THERE!!!!!
There is your problem. "IT" didn't result in life as we know it. TOO many think that Atheists and skeptics alike all believe that something went "poof" and everything is as we know it. Not so. "life as we know it" is a result of 4.5 billion years of cause and effect here on earth, not the big bang.
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Originally Posted by northstar22
According to Hawking, nothing caused the quantum fluctuation. .
Right there is where I get lost. The "something from nothing" argument.
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Originally Posted by northstar22
Mr5150, I seriously, seriously doubt your "Chuck" story. I have never, never heard of an atheist converting to Christianity for intellectual reasons. The few who do convert do so for purely emotional reasons, and likely were never really aware of the evidence for atheism. They leave atheism because "something is missing" from their lives, or they need "meaning," not because there is any evidence for theism. Once again, intellectual, knowledgeable atheists do not convert to Christianity. It simply doesn't happen.
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The "no true scotsman" blade cuts in both directions you know......
Right there is where I get lost. The "something from nothing" argument.
Read this: Stephen W. Hawking - The Origin of the Universe (http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php/lectures/94 - broken link)
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The "no true scotsman" blade cuts in both directions you know......
I didn't raise the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. I was careful to say "educated, informed atheists" do not convert for "intellectual" reasons. That's different than saying "a true atheist would never convert to Christianity."
Read this: Stephen W. Hawking - The Origin of the Universe (http://www.hawking.org.uk/index.php/lectures/94 - broken link)
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out later tonight.....
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I didn't raise the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. I was careful to say "educated, informed atheists" do not convert for "intellectual" reasons. That's different than saying "a true atheist would never convert to Christianity."
Fair enough I suppose, but you were walking a very thin line.....
Mr5150, I seriously, seriously doubt your "Chuck" story. I have never, never heard of an atheist converting to Christianity for intellectual reasons. .
So...you're calling me a liar?
I suppose you've met every atheist who converted. Perhaps the idea is too much for you to bear.
Too bad I can't use a raised middle finger smilie on this site.
Once again, intellectual, knowledgeable atheists do not convert to Christianity. It simply doesn't happen.
Ahem . . . amazingly presumptuous. I am definitely an intellectual and extremely knowledgeable ex-atheist Christian Universalist.
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