Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It is pretty amazing evidence. I looked over it before and thought it was some of the most profound evidence for Christ and His ministry since here we have evidence from Jewish sages that supports the claims of Christianity while simply making observations about the Temple. So this is information that would be coming from Anti-Christian faiths at the time. But not just anti-Christian but hostile anti-christian faiths at that time. So in affect we had those in opposition to Christ providing supporting evidence to his claim indirectly.
Jews are not "Anti-Christian." They are the people of God. Or were, anyway. I'm more interested on what the Romans thought about Jesus, since at the time, they were the least sympathetic to the worship of Jesus (seen as a threat to their sovereignty).
Jews are not "Anti-Christian." They are the people of God. Or were, anyway. I'm more interested on what the Romans thought about Jesus, since at the time, they were the least sympathetic to the worship of Jesus (seen as a threat to their sovereignty).
There's something more important being said here. I see it around America, particularly in "privilege" speeches. Our society is on the verge of collapse. No, not because of "sin" or the LGBT culture, or free love, or anything like that.
Let's look at these four signs.
The lot always turned up in the "scapegoat" (Azazel)
The western light didn't shine.
The crimson thread was not cleaned.
And the doors to the temple are opened.
Let's look at these metaphorically.
The lot always turned up in the "scapegoat" (Azazel).
Judaism is based on Unity consciousness, the idea of "Hear o Israel, the Lord your God is one" and "And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world." The point is to be seeing humanity as a whole, and working together towards equality and peace. When one turns away from this, rather than the world turning toward greater peace and happiness, it goes toward unproductive blame. Making a scapegoat feels satisfying in the short run. But in the long run, it is "payback" which in turn leads to more suffering, oppression, and war. This is part of the issue I have with stopping talking about equality, and now talking about privilege, you no longer want fairness, now you just want to point out ways where other people are at fault for something they have no control over since they were born that way.
The western light didn't shine
This refers to the Menorah. The Menorah was lit from west to east, and usually there would be enough for like seven days or so. And yet, the oil was running out. There are two perspectives to seeing the world, a scarcity mentality and an abundance mentality. A person with an abundance mentality shares or gives, and yet there always seems to be enough to spare. A person with a scarcity mentality hoards. There is only what they have hoarded, and sooner or later they will run out or people will become desperate and steal it.
The crimson thread was not cleaned.
Traditionally, to atone for sins, the blood of a lamb or something would be sacrificed, the cloth or thread would turn from red to white as the blood cleaned the thread. But now it couldn't.
This is the second issue of "privilege". It is a guilt trip. But it doesn't end here. Fat shaming. Skinny shaming. Guilt trips about hairstyle, not serving in the armed forces, being too masculine, or feminine, or too anything. The use of "sin" and guilt to torture each other. In fact, guilt is a cycle that cannot be broken that way.
And the doors to the temple are opened.
The temple was normally closed to all but the priests, however, every night they would open and the public could potentially enter.
The last issue is a lack of boundaries. Not only do you pester each other about the way they live their lives, but you can't keep yourself from being violated. The Body is a Temple. This is like a body that is allowed to be raped. In fact, within 40 years, the temple was destroyed.
All of this can happen here. Increasingly, we have an ******* busybody culture that cannot respect that people have different politics, religion, or gender identity. Rather than working together to fix this, we look for someone to blame. And we take from others when we ought to be sharing and being better stewards of the land. It doesn't have to be this way.
Jesus is on the side of the sinner and the just.
Jesus fed 5000, and continues to give us our daily bread.
Jesus forgives our sins, and teaches us to be free of unending guilt.
And Jesus teaches us that when we love our neighbor as ourselves, we will stop hurting our neighbor and stop punishing ourselves.
you're welcome. Edifying truth is essential to the faith.
The Old Testament shows that Yahweh rejected Cain's sacrifice of crops in favor of killing animals in animal/blood sacrifice, supposedly foreknowinly letting his favorite of the two humans be killed painfully. What is essential to all faiths is desperation, money, confirmation bias, etc. Edifying half-truths is essential only to cover up lies.
No evidence ever converted a single nonbeliever. Jesus said, "They will not believe even if they SEE a dead man rise from the dead". Conversion is a sovereign action preformed by God out of his will and choice.
You think Paul was a believer already? You think God is picking and choosing randomly instead of knowing how and convincing everyone? Is "The most gullible will be saved!" your actual motto, it seems so.
The Talmud was specifically created by Jews that were already exposed to Christians and rejected the anti-Law and anti-prophecy ideals that it brings up (worshiping not Yahweh only and as only one; and worshiping an assumed "single" Messiah as God even though that Messiah-candidate did not bring world peace nor was expected to be worshiped, being that King David and some High Priests are called Messiah and Moses is called Lord by his siblings).
Jews are not "Anti-Christian." They are the people of God. Or were, anyway. I'm more interested on what the Romans thought about Jesus, since at the time, they were the least sympathetic to the worship of Jesus (seen as a threat to their sovereignty).
So lest you say there is no Roman record of Jesus, there seems to be.
Go look up Simon Bar Kochba...He was though to be the Moshiach also...
Here is some light reading:
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.
Some gentiles have told me that the term "mashiach" is related to the Hebrew term "moshiah" (savior) because they sound similar, but the similarity is not as strong as it appears to one unfamiliar with Hebrew. The Hebrew word "mashiach" comes from the root Mem-Shin-Chet, which means to paint, smear, or annoint. The word "moshiah" comes from the root Yod-Shin-Ayin, which means to help or save. The only letter these roots have in common is Shin, the most common letter in the Hebrew language. The "m" sound at the beginning of the word moshiah (savior) is a common prefix used to turn a verb into a noun. For example, the verb tzavah (to command) becomes mitzvah (commandment). Saying that "mashiach" is related to "moshiah" is a bit like saying that ring is related to surfing because they both end in "ing." - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach. - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
When Will the Mashiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the mashiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the mashiach will come:
•if Israel repented a single day;
•if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
•if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
•in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
•in a generation that loses hope;
•in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders; - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15). - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
Some gentiles have tried to put an ugly spin on this theology, claiming that Jews plan to force people to convert to our religion, perhaps based on their own religion's history of doing exactly the same thing. That is not at all how Jews understand the messianic age. We believe that in that future time, everyone will simply know what the truth is, in the same way that we know that 2+2=4, and there will no longer be any reason to argue about it. It is much like a situation I witnessed at work once: two computer programmers were arguing loudly and at length about whether it was possible for a user to input data at a certain point in a program. Finally someone pressed a key and they all saw that nothing happened. Now they knew the truth, end of argument. When mashiach comes, theological truths will be equally obvious to mankind, and there will be no reason to argue about it. - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the mashiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the mashiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the entry for meshiekh in The New Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the mashiach; therefore, none of them were the mashiach. The mashiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past. - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
•Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
•Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
•Ezekiel 38:16
•Hosea 3:4-3:5
•Micah 4
•Zephaniah 3:9
•Zechariah 14:9
•Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary organization not associated with this website, especially their article about Christian Proof-Texting. - Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
Last edited by mensaguy; 02-13-2016 at 02:06 PM..
Reason: Please don't use Red text in posts.
Yes, I know the Messiah is the "anointed." The idea of Savior comes from a different belief set. I would contend that Jesus is the Messiah, only he was meant to be the Messiah for the gentiles.
We have a sense of mission from Jesus, where he tries to heal the sick, improve the world, etc. But midway through his ministry we have stories like the Samaritan woman who he says "It is not right to take the children's bread and feed it to the dogs." Jesus was Savior in that he fundamentally changed the way sin worked by offering himself as a blood offering for the sins of the gentile. In doing so, he acted as Savior to them. Is he your savior? Maybe not. But the Messiah will come, to do the work that God needs done on this Earth.
Yes, I know the Messiah is the "anointed." The idea of Savior comes from a different belief set. I would contend that Jesus is the Messiah, only he was meant to be the Messiah for the gentiles.
Messiah for the Gentiles, this is an interesting theory...However, savior does not come from a Jewish set of beliefs...The Jews have no problem with Jesus if it helps bring a Gentile person closer to G-d...The point where it becomes heresy is when they claim to be the replacement of the Jews and henceforth spiritual Israel and therefore the Jews must convert to Christianity...And this seems to be the major thought with Christians...
If he was the Messiah for the Gentiles, then there is the possibility that the verse(s) that inply that G-d sent him only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (and not the Gentiles at all), must be suspect to the possibility that it was an insertion for a specific agenda...
Quote:
We have a sense of mission from Jesus, where he tries to heal the sick, improve the world, etc. But midway through his ministry we have stories like the Samaritan woman who he says "It is not right to take the children's bread and feed it to the dogs." Jesus was Savior in that he fundamentally changed the way sin worked by offering himself as a blood offering for the sins of the gentile. In doing so, he acted as Savior to them. Is he your savior? Maybe not. But the Messiah will come, to do the work that God needs done on this Earth.
But, it seems that the Gentiles constantly use the words Savior and Messiah interchangeably when they are not the same, even in the Hebrew language...The Jews were not chosen to be a special group above and beyond the Gentiles, they were chosen by G-d for a specific mission and given the Torah to follow in order to be a light unto the Gentiles, not by preaching, but by a living example, kinda like the structure of a church whereby the Pastor (Israel) leads by example to the congregation (Gentiles), thereby showing how one should live to please G-d...The pastor of a church has less freedoms and more restrictions and expectations placed on him then the members of the congregation, therefore, he is held to a higher standard then those in his congregation...The genuine Mashiach is detailed in the Tanakh, and those attributes are the attributes of the Mashiach to come, if he does not accomplish all that G-d has told us that he must accomplish, then he cannot possibly be HaMashiach...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
