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I am assuming you are talking about values that you have learned in scripture?
Not just values but life experiences: speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, visions, holy "rushes", direct communication with the Holy Spirit, seeing the law of tithes working in my life, etc...
Mo= I WANT to vouch for OT verses personally but of course I can not. Still this does not stop me from believing them totally, even if it's a stretch; even if it means giving God the benefit of the doubt. Peace.
Not just values but life experiences: speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, visions, holy "rushes", direct communication with the Holy Spirit, seeing the law of tithes working in my life, etc...
Mordant: I WANT to vouch for OT verses personally but of course I can not. Still this does not stop me from believing them totally, even if it's a stretch; even if it means giving God the benefit of the doubt. Peace.
This raises the interesting questions of to what extent one is well advised to trust personal subjective experiences, and secondarily, the value of anyone's testimony to those experiences in forming their own opinions.
It happens that my church background is non-charismatic and unlike most non-charistmatic denominations, which seem either indifferent or tolerant towards the charismatic movement, we were taught to be very suspicious of subjective personal experience and emotion because they can be so deceptive. And this is one of the few teachings of my sect that I still agree with.
Even outside the realm of religion, feelings can reflect ordered thinking or disordered thinking (e.g., sadness vs depression, happiness vs mania). All emotions feel real and seem to have a concrete basis and yet they arise pretty much based on thoughts. So to me, with all due respect, your list of experiences look like a list of confirmation biases.
I have thought long and hard about how one would ever empirically prove a spiritual experience, assuming for the sake of argument that there is a realm of spirit which can only be personally experienced. For example people have Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and these sometimes are transformative and cathartic and change people from unbelievers to believers. If I had some sort of experience of that nature, or a Damascus Road experience, say ... if it was good and sufficient for me, should that sway anyone else? How could it? It's not verifiable or repeatable. It's just my word. Even if someone observes me in the throes of being blinded by the side of the road, and it looks compelling, the only thing an outsider can truthfully verify is that I was having a hallucination that impressed me to the point that it had a temporary physiological effect on my ability to see.
And then there's the whole matter of the authority of scripture. If the Bible is inerrant, and it is sufficient as a guide to faith and practice, then no one's personal experiences should be admissible as evidence anyway. At best, they'd be superfluous. And to our way of thinking in my denomination, something in writing is better than someone else's say-so. While I am no longer quite so in awe of holy writ as an effective vehicle for transmitting Truth, I still have to agree with that assessment.
I am not without any firsthand observational experience of charismatic church services and activities, despite the above. My first wife was attracted to such things, and for a short time, I attended an AOG megachurch and some of its cell groups, and later, an informal "house church". The charismatic movement struck me as an attempt to escape the subjective "dryness" of more staid church experiences, just as many times those "staid" experiences were a reaction against the even drier mainline denominations and their rituals and customs.
One time I was in a Bible study with the pastor of our church and he was teaching about the baptism of the holy spirit. It came down, basically, to an interpretation of about half a verse in the book of Acts. I asked him, look, people of good conscience read this sentence fragment entirely differently than you do. Are you telling me that this is essentially the whole basis for the charismata? And he said, before he could catch himself, "well, if we didn't believe this way, we wouldn't even be charismatics". You could hear a pin drop. I think he instantly regretted saying that because it revealed the true basis for church dogma, which, rather than a god-inspired "aha moment", is really just latching onto something appealing that makes you special and different from everyone else.
If you're born in most of the West you will likely be Christian but in many parts of the world you can still shop various denominations and sects to fine tune your "spirituality" to your liking. If you are a more intuitive emotional type, more experience oriented, you may well enjoy the charismata. If you are more heady, you may well go with something more "dignified". If you find security in the idea of ritual and custom and symbolism, you might go Catholic or Episcopal. Yet, when you seek capital "T" Truth, either those hairs going up on the back of your neck are the work of god, or not. Either glossolalia is or is not genuine. Either Papal authority is genuine or bogus. It can't ALL be "right" and "True".
I'm sorry, but all I see is people seeking experiences for themselves and talking about them ... I do not see anything that genuinely validates other people's spirituality for myself, and I do not see all this chaotic denominational churn pointing to a capital "T" concrete Truth.
This raises the interesting questions of to what extent one is well advised to trust personal subjective experiences, and secondarily, the value of anyone's testimony to those experiences in forming their own opinions.
It happens that my church background is non-charismatic and unlike most non-charistmatic denominations, which seem either indifferent or tolerant towards the charismatic movement, we were taught to be very suspicious of subjective personal experience and emotion because they can be so deceptive. And this is one of the few teachings of my sect that I still agree with.
Even outside the realm of religion, feelings can reflect ordered thinking or disordered thinking (e.g., sadness vs depression, happiness vs mania). All emotions feel real and seem to have a concrete basis and yet they arise pretty much based on thoughts. So to me, with all due respect, your list of experiences look like a list of confirmation biases.
I have thought long and hard about how one would ever empirically prove a spiritual experience, assuming for the sake of argument that there is a realm of spirit which can only be personally experienced. For example people have Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and these sometimes are transformative and cathartic and change people from unbelievers to believers. If I had some sort of experience of that nature, or a Damascus Road experience, say ... if it was good and sufficient for me, should that sway anyone else? How could it? It's not verifiable or repeatable. It's just my word. Even if someone observes me in the throes of being blinded by the side of the road, and it looks compelling, the only thing an outsider can truthfully verify is that I was having a hallucination that impressed me to the point that it had a temporary physiological effect on my ability to see.
And then there's the whole matter of the authority of scripture. If the Bible is inerrant, and it is sufficient as a guide to faith and practice, then no one's personal experiences should be admissible as evidence anyway. At best, they'd be superfluous. And to our way of thinking in my denomination, something in writing is better than someone else's say-so. While I am no longer quite so in awe of holy writ as an effective vehicle for transmitting Truth, I still have to agree with that assessment.
I am not without any firsthand observational experience of charismatic church services and activities, despite the above. My first wife was attracted to such things, and for a short time, I attended an AOG megachurch and some of its cell groups, and later, an informal "house church". The charismatic movement struck me as an attempt to escape the subjective "dryness" of more staid church experiences, just as many times those "staid" experiences were a reaction against the even drier mainline denominations and their rituals and customs.
One time I was in a Bible study with the pastor of our church and he was teaching about the baptism of the holy spirit. It came down, basically, to an interpretation of about half a verse in the book of Acts. I asked him, look, people of good conscience read this sentence fragment entirely differently than you do. Are you telling me that this is essentially the whole basis for the charismata? And he said, before he could catch himself, "well, if we didn't believe this way, we wouldn't even be charismatics". You could hear a pin drop. I think he instantly regretted saying that because it revealed the true basis for church dogma, which, rather than a god-inspired "aha moment", is really just latching onto something appealing that makes you special and different from everyone else.
If you're born in most of the West you will likely be Christian but in many parts of the world you can still shop various denominations and sects to fine tune your "spirituality" to your liking. If you are a more intuitive emotional type, more experience oriented, you may well enjoy the charismata. If you are more heady, you may well go with something more "dignified". If you find security in the idea of ritual and custom and symbolism, you might go Catholic or Episcopal. Yet, when you seek capital "T" Truth, either those hairs going up on the back of your neck are the work of god, or not. Either glossolalia is or is not genuine. Either Papal authority is genuine or bogus. It can't ALL be "right" and "True".
I'm sorry, but all I see is people seeking experiences for themselves and talking about them ... I do not see anything that genuinely validates other people's spirituality for myself, and I do not see all this chaotic denominational churn pointing to a capital "T" concrete Truth.
I certainly get what you are saying and where you are coming from. It would seem to be more of a psychology questiion than one of religion when we ponder what to believe and from whom. I have a brother who is an alcoholic and I wouldn't believe 1/2 of what he says and he's family! On the other hand, an EXTREMELY devoted Christian lady whom I used to go to church with told my wife and I of a spiritual encounter she had with an angel of the Lord and I tend to believe her whole heartedly. In point of fact, this woman is still the most Godly woman I've ever known- even a "better" Christian than our pastor (and he was hard to top!). If you like I can relay her mind-blowing story later but not now.
Certainly in the past and even now there are those who fabricate spiritual experiences just to get attention or for other reasons. There is no end to charlatans seeking to exploit the naïve for cash, giving Christianity a bad name in doing so.
For me, I have always been skeptical so I must truly know a person before I believe a Paul Bunyon story.
Personal experiences certainly speak volumns and its a shame that all atheists/agnostics will not allow themselves to have specific experiences (tongues etc...). I have posted quite a few times on the Christian forums for born-agains to go to a Spirit-filled Church. If a church isn't Spirit-filled I consider it to be a dead church. These are the one's where after 2 or 3 years the Christian asks, "Is that all there is?? I thought there would be more", then they leave and sometimes never attend a church of any denomination after that.
From the experiences I've personally had (some listed in my OP) comes the "I know that I know that I know" re-inforcement in my heart. This is the kind of "knowing" that removes all doubt and confirms scripture. If you like I can type up some of my personal testimony and post it.
Still that leaves you right back where we started- how do you know that you can believe what I say?
Maybe we have to discern the intention of the heart to give I us a clue?
If a church isn't Spirit-filled I consider it to be a dead church. These are the one's where after 2 or 3 years the Christian asks, "Is that all there is?? I thought there would be more", then they leave and sometimes never attend a church of any denomination after that.
There are plenty of people who never tire of high church ritual; it all depends on what you need and expect and how you choose to regard it. Gregorian chanting can be by turns boring, creepy, comforting, or beautiful depending on where you are coming from. The idea of ancient rituals that can allegedly be traced back to the original apostles is incredibly comforting to a certain kind of person.
For another kind of person, who either is very emotionally oriented toward the world or, in the alternative, is simply addicted to "rushes" (like people who like base jumping, reckless behaviors of various kinds, etc) mainline denominational experience would fail to get a rise out of them very quickly. On the other hand, someone who is more heady and intellectual would prefer a more staid church experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus
From the experiences I've personally had (some listed in my OP) comes the "I know that I know that I know" re-inforcement in my heart. This is the kind of "knowing" that removes all doubt and confirms scripture. If you like I can type up some of my personal testimony and post it.
Still that leaves you right back where we started- how do you know that you can believe what I say?
Maybe we have to discern the intention of the heart to give I us a clue?
Even if I accurately determined someone's intentions are good, it's no proof that they aren't mistaken or deceived. It's proof only of good intent. The problem remains that there are many ways to deceive oneself, especially when you really want to.
That's why I don't talk much about the experiences that led me to unbelief, other than as general background. It doesn't really matter what my experiences are; others would doubtless react differently to the very same experiences. The only thing that matters are the facts in evidence and how I have weighed them.
mordant -
I'm jumping in at the middle of a long-standing dilemma which you have experienced. I personally believe the most imporant thing is to look at what we desire more than anything else in the world. If our strongest desire is for fame or riches or any earthly joy, we will never be convinced of anything spiritual, and we will never believe in God or the Bible.
But Jesus said in Matt. 5:[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. If we truly have a hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be like Cornelius in Acts chapter 9, whose prayers came up as a memorial before God. Since God, as we believe, is omniscient and knows our very thoughts and intents. God, through His omnipotence made arrangements for Cornelius and his gentile friends to receive the Holy Ghost.
I personally believe that God, in His omniscience, knows the heart of everyone who is truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and through His omnipotence will make it possible for that person, anywhere in the world, to be able to be given the Holy Ghost, which makes him or her able to be obedient to our Savior in His very strict spiritual requirements. Without that Holy Spirit we are totally unable to keep His commandments. But with that Spirit, we are given the power to live a life that is pleasing to God and His only begotten Son. In the Old Testament, the Prophet Jeremiah said in Jer. 29:[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Unless a person is hungering and thirsting after reghteousness more than anything else in the world, he or she will never find that living a life that is pleasing to God and His Son is more valuable than anything we can achieve naturally.
mordant -
I'm jumping in at the middle of a long-standing dilemma which you have experienced. I personally believe the most imporant thing is to look at what we desire more than anything else in the world. If our strongest desire is for fame or riches or any earthly joy, we will never be convinced of anything spiritual, and we will never believe in God or the Bible.
But Jesus said in Matt. 5:[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. If we truly have a hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be like Cornelius in Acts chapter 9, whose prayers came up as a memorial before God. Since God, as we believe, is omniscient and knows our very thoughts and intents. God, through His omnipotence made arrangements for Cornelius and his gentile friends to receive the Holy Ghost.
I personally believe that God, in His omniscience, knows the heart of everyone who is truly hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and through His omnipotence will make it possible for that person, anywhere in the world, to be able to be given the Holy Ghost, which makes him or her able to be obedient to our Savior in His very strict spiritual requirements. Without that Holy Spirit we are totally unable to keep His commandments. But with that Spirit, we are given the power to live a life that is pleasing to God and His only begotten Son. In the Old Testament, the Prophet Jeremiah said in Jer. 29:[13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Unless a person is hungering and thirsting after reghteousness more than anything else in the world, he or she will never find that living a life that is pleasing to God and His Son is more valuable than anything we can achieve naturally.
I am not jumping in for mordant because he can handle his own. However, I think it is a bit, I don't know, self-righteous to assume that mordant and other atheist like him desire only earthly things (and that you do not, because you found God).
I certainly get what you are saying and where you are coming from. It would seem to be more of a psychology questiion than one of religion when we ponder what to believe and from whom. I have a brother who is an alcoholic and I wouldn't believe 1/2 of what he says and he's family! On the other hand, an EXTREMELY devoted Christian lady whom I used to go to church with told my wife and I of a spiritual encounter she had with an angel of the Lord and I tend to believe her whole heartedly. In point of fact, this woman is still the most Godly woman I've ever known- even a "better" Christian than our pastor (and he was hard to top!). If you like I can relay her mind-blowing story later but not now.
Certainly in the past and even now there are those who fabricate spiritual experiences just to get attention or for other reasons. There is no end to charlatans seeking to exploit the naïve for cash, giving Christianity a bad name in doing so.
For me, I have always been skeptical so I must truly know a person before I believe a Paul Bunyon story.
Personal experiences certainly speak volumns and its a shame that all atheists/agnostics will not allow themselves to have specific experiences (tongues etc...). I have posted quite a few times on the Christian forums for born-agains to go to a Spirit-filled Church. If a church isn't Spirit-filled I consider it to be a dead church. These are the one's where after 2 or 3 years the Christian asks, "Is that all there is?? I thought there would be more", then they leave and sometimes never attend a church of any denomination after that.
From the experiences I've personally had (some listed in my OP) comes the "I know that I know that I know" re-inforcement in my heart. This is the kind of "knowing" that removes all doubt and confirms scripture. If you like I can type up some of my personal testimony and post it.
Still that leaves you right back where we started- how do you know that you can believe what I say?
Maybe we have to discern the intention of the heart to give I us a clue?
Many people of other faiths claim the same experiences about their Gods. Are you claiming that their experiences aren't genuine or that their intentions of their hearts aren't authentic? We may not be able to prove your experiences aren't genuine, but we can prove/disprove the attributes of your God. If you can make list of these attributes and provide the evidence that these are true, then this would go far in validating your experiences.
I am not jumping in for mordant because he can handle his own. However, I think it is a bit, I don't know, self-righteous to assume that mordant and other atheist like him desire only earthly things (and that you do not, because you found God).
Believers don't have any real arguments against rational objections to their faith. In response, they often try to convince themselves that people who don't believe do so because of some character defect.
Many people of other faiths claim the same experiences about their Gods. Are you claiming that their experiences aren't genuine or that their intentions of their hearts aren't authentic? We may not be able to prove your experiences aren't genuine, but we can prove/disprove the attributes of your God. If you can make list of these attributes and provide the evidence that these are true, then this would go far in validating your experiences.
I personally believe that the Father of Jesus Christ and His Son manifest all the characteristics of true holiness, and that they judge the world with perfect mercy and justice.
I personally believe that the Father of Jesus Christ and His Son manifest all the characteristics of true holiness, and that they judge the world with perfect mercy and justice.
And do you?
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