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Justification is literally an act of God which
1. declares us to be free from guilt
2. makes us acceptable to Him and
3. allows Him to count us as righteous
In my opinion an excellent post.
I believe the God of the universe is perfectly righteous and just in His dealings with fallen mankind. I believe the Bible is God's Word and the prime source of righteousness on the earth.
See Romans 3:[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
[12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15] Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16] Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17] And the way of peace have they not known:
[18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
God demonstrated His love for fallen mankind by sending His only begotten Son to pay for the sins of the whole world by His sacrifice on the cross. John 3:[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I would be ashamed to flaunt unbelief in the Supreme authority in the universe, and risk the wages of eternal damnation because of choosing to live in darkness, rather than admitting that we are sinners when we reject the sacrifice of the Son of God.
See 2 Peter 3:[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Justification is literally an act of God which
1. declares us to be free from guilt
2. makes us acceptable to Him and
3. allows Him to count us as righteous
In my opinion an excellent post
To me believing in a supreme intelligent creator of the universe makes more sense to me than believing that every man is free to establish his own ideas of what is right and what is wrong. I would be ashamed to flaunt my unbelief in the face of a being that I consider to be perfectly Holy.
See 2 Peter 3:[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I believe that God knows the mind of every one on the face of the earth who is hungering and thirsting after righteousness, but most of mankind chooses to stay in darkness rather than to admit that by nature we are all born as sinners, and being willing to lay aside our stubborn will and way to beg to know and DO the will of almighty God, who Christians believe is perfectly holy and desires all to come to repentance so that they can experience the total forgiveness from all their past sins.
Also, you started with righteousness and moved to justification. What if I told you that I am a good person but I don't do it to justify myself. How could I? I did not ask for my existence. If I asked for my existence, then I can see why I need to justify myself.
I am good because I am a thinking person.
ETA: Not that you have to prove anything to me but I wanted to comment on the "not good enough." I grew up not being good enough so your claims or the bible's claims that being a good person is not good enough, doesn't move me.
The intentional, wilfull, deliberate sin you commit weekly BY CHOICE. This is the sin that you intentionally give place to and then commit willingly. Most are sins of the flesh which is the place where sin resides in man. You sin because you don't have your flesh and/or mind under total subjection or because you simply WANT to; you chose to. WE ALL DO.
Yes in the secular world righteousness and justification are 2 different things. But in Christianity the two are inseparable when speaking of salvation and forgiveness of sins. I should not have mashed them together. My bad.
You try to be a "good person" because you have high standards of ethics and morals. This is within all mankind but "is not enough". Your sin remains unforgiven and only God can forgive sins.
In all likelihood your growing up "not being good enough" was a comparison between your self and your siblings made by your parents. Hopefully this was done not in spite but to try to nudge you to do better. I don't know. When God tells us things in scripture that "ruffle our feathers" (none are good, all have sinned etc..) it is for a reason. He does this to teach and inform not to insult. He expects us to see past the "oh, that hurts my poor feelings" and see the deep truth in these statements and verses.
How many countless thousands of atheists read something they don't totally understand from God and then it's off to the races:
God doesn't exist
There's no evidence of God
God wouldn't send anyone to hell
God allows sickness and disease and cancer....
God is not Holy
No such thing as sin
He tells us "lean not to your own understanding" (which is hugely limited) and to "trust in the Lord with all your heart" [Pr. 3:5] Have you ever actually done this? Have you come to subjects in the scriptures which you don't understand and actually trusted that maybe God is correct?
IMO atheists are atheists BECAUSE they don't trust in God's wisdom and knowledge but instead lean on their on limited understanding. Some things are greater than man and we don't make the rules. The most uneducated bushman in the most remote place on earth can look up into the clear night sky and seeing the stars instinctively KNOW there is someone or something greater than he. It's God.
It appears that many atheists believe that God is somehow not capable of having/showing emotions. In fact, He has and shows them. Having and showing emotions does not make God "less than perfect" somehow! The "oh, God got mad and jealous; a REAL God would NEVER do that, so He doesn't exist" thinking is incorrect. You simply can't jump from that to "there is no God!" The Bible clearly tells us God has and shows emotions.Again, learn of the nature and characteristics of God; their in the book.
Is jealousy part of being righteous?
Quote:
3. GOD CANNOT BE UNRIGHTEOUS.
4. GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL.
5. GOD CANNOT TOLERATE HYPOCRASY.
Quote:
I believe the God of the universe is perfectly righteous and just in His
dealings with fallen mankind. I believe the Bible is God's Word and the prime
source of righteousness on the earth. may become guilty before God.
Well I agree that God of the universe is perfectly righteous and just in His dealings with fallen mankind if you believe the Bible. That is what this whole thread is about anyway, God's limitations, so therefore, because He has limitations, he must have consequences. And if you believe the Bible is the prime source of righteousness, then of course he is dealing with us justly.
I think what I am trying to figure out is how did you know that the Bible is the prime source of righteousness on the Earth?
This is faux accountability. No one can empirically demonstrate what god considers righteous and in fact even the adherents to your particular religion cannot agree on what righteousness consists of to any meaningful degree of detail. So you are left with the same thing everyone else is left with: what seems right to you. If what seems right to you is to agree with the dogma of your religion, that does not absolve you of responsibility for your own decisions. If you don't believe me, then do something illegal enough to get the attention of the civil authorities. Note the source of the resulting sanctions is not god, but man (or more abstractly, society).
IMO you should have been more specific- no one can empirically demonstrate what God considers righteous[ness] TO YOU, though I for the life of me don't know why. Righteousness and righteous behavior are presented IN DEPTH in scripture. Righteousness comes from the original Greek DIKAIOSUNE which is found 92 times. The English 'righteousness' is found 305 times in scripture. It means RIGHT-DOING in all places. To try to live a clean Christian life is to try to live a life of righteousness. The Bible must give at least 200 verses defining and/or advising us on what is and is not righteous[ness]. You know this to be true. I'm puzzled at your statement when you say even the adherents ... cannot agree on what righteousness consists of to any meaningful degree. Among the topics addressing righteousness in scripture include but are not limited to:
forgiveness of others, love, hope, charity, peace, patience, meekness, kindness, temperance, obedience, humbleness, virtuous living, hospitality to strangers, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, jail ministries, helping widows and on and on and on. I don't think there are more than a handful of mature Christians who DO NOT know what righteousness consists of, sorry.
Also, I believe I gave a fairly good example of GODLY righteousness in my OP (grace, mercy, compassion, longsuffering towards man). Romans (particularly chapt. 3 and 1 Jn. ) go into great detail about 'right doing".
Your statement of "faux accountability" is hypocritical (sorry, plz don't take offense). The REAL faux accountability is atheism! Atheism is a "religion" of self over God to the total exclusion of God in every detail of life. In truth atheists are only therefore accountable to themselves. THIS is a glaringly clear example of faux accountability! This is much akin to the fox guarding the hen house. Being accountable only to one's self could be interpreted to be a form of egotism, narcissism or at the very least a sign that one has been deceived by lies to the outsider looking in with no dog in the fight.
Actually, the difference between Christians and atheists is that we atheists don't believe that good and decent human beings deserve to be tortured forevermore simply because those people didn't join the Christian Cult of Blood Sacrifice.
Because that IS what Christians claim even if they don't realize it. They believe that non-Christians and atheists DESERVE to be tortured forever. It demonstrates wholeheartedly the moral bankruptcy of Christianity, especially knowing there is no true justice given that even the worst people can fly up to heaven with a simple prayer of forgiveness.
Thus the whole concept isn't really about sin at all - or being good and righteous. It's about stroking the ego of a supreme being by making sure you ask HIM for forgiveness. It's not enough to simply be sorry and remorseful (something an all-knowing deity should already sense), one has to actually beg or it is eternal torment for you, buster!
It's really quite a demented belief system when one really sits down and thinks about it. Even this ...
... is quite ridiculous. First of all, notice our sins are wiped away only if we BELIEVE in Jesus. It says nothing about living life as a good person. The hinge upon which this door swings is all about believing in a god and joining the Big Cult. It has absolutely nothing to do with accountability or righteousness, especially since the people sinners should be seeking forgiveness from are the victims or the families of victims, NOT some celestial spy camera in the sky.
Secondly, I called it the Christian Cult of Blood Sacrifice because of how Christians revere the act of murder and blood sacrifice as something wondrous and holy. God simply could have forgiven humanity - especially since it was God's blundering that put humanity in this position in the first place. Instead, God goes through this convoluted process of forgiveness that includes deliberately putting his son on the cross ("He GAVE his only begotten son"), three days of torture, and a completely useless and redundant blood sacrifice for our so-called sins.
The irony is that Heaven will be filled to bursting with ex-cons and ex-felons who found Jesus in prison, but those who truly led good, law-abiding, selfless lives who didn't kneel to a god won't be there. How's that for justice and accountability? Especially with 2 billion plus people who honestly think everyone else deserves to be tortured forever.
Nice, huh?
There are many denominations who believe that the human soul is destroyed quickly in hell thus the pain and torment is extremely short. If this were true, would it change your attitude toward God? Be honest.
It IS all about sin. Your post about stroking the ego of God shows:
1. you don't know the nature and characteristics of God, and/or
2. your hatred for Him
Sin has consequences. Sin separates man from God both physically and spiritually. It causes everything physical to DIE. It shortens the lifespan of man and opens the door for sickness and disease. It corrupts your body and your flesh; your mind and your heart. There is no record of sickness in man until AFTER his sin. SIN BRINGS SPIRITUAL DEATH. Man brought sin into human history not God. Blaming man's sin on God's "blundering" is displaced blame. It shows a total lack of understanding. It is what it is. God instituted the blood sacrifice to cover man's nakedness, shame and guilt by clothing them in 'coats of skins' (Gen. 3:21). By doing so God points the way for the Messiah to come in the future. If you never sinned there'd be no need for a savior. However, God created a plan whereby HE would take the penalty for man's sin even though He Himself was Holy, sinless and without fault or blame or guilt. This plan is a plan of joint co-operation. It take you to:
1. realize that you are a sinner
2. admit you are guilty and deserve the penalty for your sins (however long or short that may be)
In order to do that you must humble yourself and put aside your pride. I wrote a thread about the pride and stubbornness of atheists but it was quickly locked. Apparently it was not politically correct.
In the OT God showed the Israelites miracle after miracle after miracle. There just was no doubt that He was God, He was real and the at the Israelite were His chose people. STILL they worshipped false Gods and sinned against the one true God in numerous ways. He called these people a "stiff-necked" people because of their stubbornness and pride. He told them repeatedly that He would remove His protection and blessings; that they would incur His wrath if they continued on this path. They did and He did what He told them He would do. We are to learn the lessons from the OT and not make the same mistakes.
No its not enough to be sorry. YOUR sin remains and must be dealt with. God's plan of salvation and reconciliation makes perfect sense. In the only true religion that does make sense, God's mercy, grace and compassion TAKES THE PENALTY FOR YOU and a sinful race of people.
Can Islam make this claim? Buddhism? Confuciusism? Paganism? Judaism?" Atheism? Agnosticism? In each of these false religions, who died to save mankind? Who paid the price for their trillions of sins when He didn't have to?
There are many denominations who believe that the human soul is destroyed quickly in hell thus the pain and torment is extremely short. If this were true, would it change your attitude toward God? Be honest.
It IS all about sin. Your post about stroking the ego of God shows:
1. you don't know the nature and characteristics of God, and/or
2. your hatred for Him
Sin has consequences. Sin separates man from God both physically and spiritually. It causes everything physical to DIE. It shortens the lifespan of man and opens the door for sickness and disease. It corrupts your body and your flesh; your mind and your heart. There is no record of sickness in man until AFTER his sin. SIN BRINGS SPIRITUAL DEATH. Man brought sin into human history not God. Blaming man's sin on God's "blundering" is displaced blame. It shows a total lack of understanding. It is what it is. God instituted the blood sacrifice to cover man's nakedness, shame and guilt by clothing them in 'coats of skins' (Gen. 3:21). By doing so God points the way for the Messiah to come in the future. If you never sinned there'd be no need for a savior. However, God created a plan whereby HE would take the penalty for man's sin even though He Himself was Holy, sinless and without fault or blame or guilt. This plan is a plan of joint co-operation. It take you to:
1. realize that you are a sinner
2. admit you are guilty and deserve the penalty for your sins (however long or short that may be)
In order to do that you must humble yourself and put aside your pride. I wrote a thread about the pride and stubbornness of atheists but it was quickly locked. Apparently it was not politically correct.
In the OT God showed the Israelites miracle after miracle after miracle. There just was no doubt that He was God, He was real and the at the Israelite were His chose people. STILL they worshipped false Gods and sinned against the one true God in numerous ways. He called these people a "stiff-necked" people because of their stubbornness and pride. He told them repeatedly that He would remove His protection and blessings; that they would incur His wrath if they continued on this path. They did and He did what He told them He would do. We are to learn the lessons from the OT and not make the same mistakes.
No its not enough to be sorry. YOUR sin remains and must be dealt with. God's plan of salvation and reconciliation makes perfect sense. In the only true religion that does make sense, God's mercy, grace and compassion TAKES THE PENALTY FOR YOU and a sinful race of people.
Can Islam make this claim? Buddhism? Confuciusism? Paganism? Judaism?" Atheism? Agnosticism? In each of these false religions, who died to save mankind? Who paid the price for their trillions of sins when He didn't have to?
"Your sins remain.
You speak of the Bible God as being just. Is vicarious redemption considered "just" in your view?
I also believe I read that you believe that humans cannot understand the righteousness of God. Is this your view?
IMO you should have been more specific- no one can empirically demonstrate what God considers righteous[ness] TO YOU, though I for the life of me don't know why. Righteousness and righteous behavior are presented IN DEPTH in scripture. Righteousness comes from the original Greek DIKAIOSUNE which is found 92 times. The English 'righteousness' is found 305 times in scripture. It means RIGHT-DOING in all places. To try to live a clean Christian life is to try to live a life of righteousness. The Bible must give at least 200 verses defining and/or advising us on what is and is not righteous[ness]. You know this to be true. I'm puzzled at your statement when you say even the adherents ... cannot agree on what righteousness consists of to any meaningful degree. Among the topics addressing righteousness in scripture include but are not limited to:
forgiveness of others, love, hope, charity, peace, patience, meekness, kindness, temperance, obedience, humbleness, virtuous living, hospitality to strangers, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, jail ministries, helping widows and on and on and on. I don't think there are more than a handful of mature Christians who DO NOT know what righteousness consists of, sorry.
Also, I believe I gave a fairly good example of GODLY righteousness in my OP (grace, mercy, compassion, longsuffering towards man). Romans (particularly chapt. 3 and 1 Jn. ) go into great detail about 'right doing".
Your statement of "faux accountability" is hypocritical (sorry, plz don't take offense). The REAL faux accountability is atheism! Atheism is a "religion" of self over God to the total exclusion of God in every detail of life. In truth atheists are only therefore accountable to themselves. THIS is a glaringly clear example of faux accountability! This is much akin to the fox guarding the hen house. Being accountable only to one's self could be interpreted to be a form of egotism, narcissism or at the very least a sign that one has been deceived by lies to the outsider looking in with no dog in the fight.
In my opinion, there is something to be gained by converting an atheist. It was mentioned in your posts. You cannot have a dog in the fight until you have gotten into the fight and that is what you are trying to do.
If many of these characteristics of atheism are true for each and every atheists, obviously, the world would be in a better situation.
Anyway, I guess I am going to have to concede and admit I am a sinner, though I do not call it sin. And I am going to admit that it is God who I go to in order to remind myself of it, though not in a way a Christian might. I must not know any spiritual Christians, but according to the regular Christians I do know, I have more stamina than they do following the descriptions of righteousness. Just as it is difficult for me to understand your position, it is difficult for them to understand how I do it, though it is easy.
I would like to meet a spiritual Christian in person.
In my opinion, there is something to be gained by converting an atheist. It was mentioned in your posts. You cannot have a dog in the fight until you have gotten into the fight and that is what you are trying to do.
If many of these characteristics of atheism are true for each and every atheists, obviously, the world would be in a better situation.
Anyway, I guess I am going to have to concede and admit I am a sinner, though I do not call it sin. And I am going to admit that it is God who I go to in order to remind myself of it, though not in a way a Christian might. I must not know any spiritual Christians, but according to the regular Christians I do know, I have more stamina than they do following the descriptions of righteousness. Just as it is difficult for me to understand your position, it is difficult for them to understand how I do it, though it is easy.
I would like to meet a spiritual Christian in person.
Whether you call it sin or something else, recognizing and admitting one is a sinner is wisdom in God's eyes. It's also wise that you go to God to remind yourself of it (although your conscience will do that for you).
Can you take the next step and accept God's free gift of forgiveness for those sins? If you can I can introduce you to a real spiritual Christian- Jesus Christ.
Whether you call it sin or something else, recognizing and admitting one is a sinner is wisdom in God's eyes. It's also wise that you go to God to remind yourself of it (although your conscience will do that for you).
Can you take the next step and accept God's free gift of forgiveness for those sins? If you can I can introduce you to a real spiritual Christian- Jesus Christ.
Though this may be difficult for you to believe, I already have.
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