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First of all...I didn't make "threats of bloodshed against the nonreligious". I said "I predict". I mostly spoke of them using the current governmental system that exists in the U.S. to get what they want.
What planet have you been living on?
Bottom Line: The world always sorts it out in the end.
We have had many, many kinds of conceptual systems throughout human history...with more to come. We all just make our way as best we can within our circumstances. All you can do is play your hand the best you can...or the best you are willing to.
Legal sanctions may slow things down...for a time. But if people REALLY want something...they will not be deterred. For Example: How did that "Prohibition" thing work out?
But in the end...the ONLY way to stop people that REALLY want something is to kill them. For Example: That is the only thing that will stop ISIS...and my prediction is that the world will eventually do that. It comes down to "Might makes Right"...it always has...and always will
At this point many governments have enough force to be the "Most Mighty" in some regards. But that isn't always the case. There have been lots of revolutions throughout human history. Religion was the basis for many (most) of them. Time will tell, it always does.
Yes, and what you have just witnessed is 2000 years of oppression of some straights toward gays---kicked back in the faces of haters. Laws called for criminalization of homosexuality. We don't do that anymore, but numerous African countries have criminalized it because American fundamentalist preachers have flooded Africa in recent years spouting lies about a gay agenda. Countries that once at least tolerated it, are now prescribing prison terms.
So, yes, the Court decision is the result of them fighting in many states for equality. The old powermongers, fundamentalists are getting their teeth handed to them in a sack, and now they want to play the old "youareuh pick in' on us here Christians" ( who simply want to treat homosexuals and any others not up to their own high standards as pieces of garbage)
Guess what, the hate tactics of fundamentalist churches, their attempt to tell people how god wants them to vote, and their self-righteous absurdities have gotten them a dose of their own medicine.
The death threats were the direct result of the PUBLICITY the bakers purposely and deliberately created. They went on shows and maliciously and deliberately published the names and address of the lesbian couple endangering them AND their foster children. All the public response was attributed entirely to the bakers. because the Lesbian couple were trying to avoid publicity especially for the sake of the foster children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And no sympathy for the death threats against the baker's children? Not a peep from your side about that.
There is no excuse for death threats to anyone. But you seem to want to ignore the actual situation in favor of your preferred belief that this was an attempt to persecute an innocent Christian baker. It was the exact opposite. I was explicitly against the law for the baker to discriminate against the lesbian couple. It didn't even need the SCOTUS decision. It was already in the law. The couple reported this criminal discrimination and action was taken by the authorities. That is when the bakers instituted their persecution of the Lesbian couple by publicizing them and their address. They went on shows exhorting their Christian cohorts to take action to protect their religious freedom. They were the INSTIGATORS of all the bad responses that ensued. That is why the court awarded DAMAGES against them. They caused real harm to the Lesbian couple and their foster children. The bakers were not persecuted. They did the persecuting.
There is no excuse for death threats to anyone. But you seem to want to ignore the actual situation in favor of your preferred belief that this was an attempt to persecute an innocent Christian baker. It was the exact opposite. I was explicitly against the law for the baker to discriminate against the lesbian couple. It didn't even need the SCOTUS decision. It was already in the law. The couple reported this criminal discrimination and action was taken by the authorities. That is when the bakers instituted their persecution of the Lesbian couple by publicizing them and their address. They went on shows exhorting their Christian cohorts to take action to protect their religious freedom. They were the INSTIGATORS of all the bad responses that ensued. That is why the court awarded DAMAGES against them. They caused real harm to the Lesbian couple and their foster children. The bakers were not persecuted. They did the persecuting.
No, the lesbian couple instigated the whole mess by making this a very public battle. Therefore, they were the ones who made Sweet Cakes a PUBLIC target for the haters.
Funny how it's now all about the death threats that the lesbian couple received when no one said a word about all the hate and death threats that the Christians receive. I even recall some people trying to justify it here. Unbelievable but not surprising.
That is a not true. I and several others said that the death threats you mentioned was wrong, very wrong. The second set of death threats was brought up because you kept stating that the original death threats you mentioned was showing how intolerant the gays and their supporters are making these threats, and implying we agreed with them or at least supported them. You have not aid anything about the other threats other than to dismiss them due to it being written in a left leaning website.
To everyone, go back and read all the responses to Jeff ' s remarks about the death threats, if Jeff is correct I will apologize to him and even Christian on this thread and repeat what I believe I have already stated. If I am correct and the issue has been addressed Jeff can remain silent about it or to continue his accusations that no one addressed it. The threats to the pizza owner where addressed in another threat as both being wrong and one of the threats was not a real one.
There is no excuse for death threats to anyone. But you seem to want to ignore the actual situation in favor of your preferred belief that this was an attempt to persecute an innocent Christian baker. It was the exact opposite. I was explicitly against the law for the baker to discriminate against the lesbian couple. It didn't even need the SCOTUS decision. It was already in the law. The couple reported this criminal discrimination and action was taken by the authorities. That is when the bakers instituted their persecution of the Lesbian couple by publicizing them and their address. They went on shows exhorting their Christian cohorts to take action to protect their religious freedom. They were the INSTIGATORS of all the bad responses that ensued. That is why the court awarded DAMAGES against them. They caused real harm to the Lesbian couple and their foster children. The bakers were not persecuted. They did the persecuting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
No, the lesbian couple instigated the whole mess by making this a very public battle. Therefore, they were the ones who made Sweet Cakes a PUBLIC target for the haters.
No. You need to read the actual court materials and educate yourself about the truth of what transpired . . . NOT your Christian blogs. The Lesbian couple desperately wanted to avoid ANY publicity because it endangered their foster children and any chance they might have to adopt them. ALL the publicizing was done by the baker . . . including putting the Lesbian couple's names and address on his website and elsewhere to incite harassment. The court does NOT issue civil damages (not punitive) without proof of actual harm instigated by the baker.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-09-2015 at 10:53 PM..
After a quick look Jeff s first mention of the death threats in this thread was 273, the first response to him was 286 and my first response to Jeff was post 289 where I brought up the death threats against the gay couple AND said that and death threats to either side was wrong. Please go read post 289. Jeff has yet to call out the threats against the women.
I think we are already seeing. It gets "them" equality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petunia 100
No one is trying to take away anyone's religion.
Let me try to explain a little more about my prediction Petunia.
It isn't so much the homosexuals getting married that bothers the Religious. It is the government trying to tell them that they have to knowingly do something, something that goes against their beliefs, that will be part of the ceremony and/or celebration of it...and if they don't, they will be legally sanctioned by a fine or shut-down, or some other penalty.
You don't have to "take away anyone's religion" to cause the conflict.
Tell some devout Muslim guy that owns a restaurant "you won't take away his religion", he can keep his Islamic faith...but you LEGALLY DEMAND that he sell pork, or let his wife and daughter go out of the house, not only without proper faith-conforming dress and headscarves, but in shorts and a crop top. Tell him, "It's now THE LAW", and if he doesn't do or allow those things...you will fine him over a hundred thousand dollars or shut him down.
Do you think that since you are "still allowing him to keep his religion"...that he will be okay with those legal requirements?
As of now...the the very great majority of people that have been hassled about their refusal to do things that go against their religious beliefs are people that are nonmilitant. But eventually, they are gonna try to dictate these ordinances to the wrong people...and it will be like a snowball rolling downhill.
I see them getting on the case of some cupcake cooking little Christian couple, "The Little Sisters of the Poor", or some school that has a portrait of Jesus hanging in the hallway. Funny though...I don't see them going into Halal delis that do catering and ask them to cater the SSM reception.
Easy to shove around the little kitten...but it's a whole other thing to take a swat at the big bad tiger.
People will do anything to support or not violate their religious beliefs. Get thrown into a pit of hungry lions, blow themselves up, fight to the death...you name it.
Keep pushing...and I am very sure how it is going to turn out in the end. And it won't be pretty.
I hope I'm wrong...but I don't think I am.
Let me try to explain a little more about my prediction Petunia.
It isn't so much the homosexuals getting married that bothers the Religious. It is the government trying to tell them that they have to knowingly do something, something that goes against their beliefs, that will be part of the ceremony and/or celebration of it...and if they don't, they will be legally sanctioned by a fine or shut-down, or some other penalty.
You don't have to "take away anyone's religion" to cause the conflict.
Tell some devout Muslim guy that owns a restaurant "you won't take away his religion", he can keep his Islamic faith...but you LEGALLY DEMAND that he sell pork, or let his wife and daughter go out of the house, not only without proper faith-conforming dress and headscarves, but in shorts and a crop top. Tell him, "It's now THE LAW", and if he doesn't do or allow those things...you will fine him over a hundred thousand dollars or shut him down.
Do you think that since you are "still allowing him to keep his religion"...that he will be okay with those legal requirements?
As of now...the the very great majority of people that have been hassled about their refusal to do things that go against their religious beliefs are people that are nonmilitant. But eventually, they are gonna try to dictate these ordinances to the wrong people...and it will be like a snowball rolling downhill.
I see them getting on the case of some cupcake cooking little Christian couple, "The Little Sisters of the Poor", or some school that has a portrait of Jesus hanging in the hallway. Funny though...I don't see them going into Halal delis that do catering and ask them to cater the SSM reception.
Easy to shove around the little kitten...but it's a whole other thing to take a swat at the big bad tiger.
People will do anything to support or not violate their religious beliefs. Get thrown into a pit of hungry lions, blow themselves up, fight to the death...you name it.
Keep pushing...and I am very sure how it is going to turn out in the end. And it won't be pretty.
I hope I'm wrong...but I don't think I am.
Yes, and what you have just witnessed is 2000 years of oppression of some straights toward gays---kicked back in the faces of haters. Laws called for criminalization of homosexuality. We don't do that anymore, but numerous African countries have criminalized it because American fundamentalist preachers have flooded Africa in recent years spouting lies about a gay agenda. Countries that once at least tolerated it, are now prescribing prison terms.
So, yes, the Court decision is the result of them fighting in many states for equality. The old powermongers, fundamentalists are getting their teeth handed to them in a sack, and now they want to play the old "youareuh pick in' on us here Christians" ( who simply want to treat homosexuals and any others not up to their own high standards as pieces of garbage)
Guess what, the hate tactics of fundamentalist churches, their attempt to tell people how god wants them to vote, and their self-righteous absurdities have gotten them a dose of their own medicine.
And it's about time.
It is this "US against THEM" mentality that is at the core of the problem. With each relishing the other side "getting their medicine" or "getting their teeth handed to them", for what ever reason they feel they should.
It's "hate" going both ways. Don't you see that?
You are trying to fight hate with hate...and that is a futile effort. You just get more hate.
If I go into a place where they don't want me or my business...I'm outta there! I'm not gonna sweat it for even a second. Another place will accept me and/or my patronage.
Being in the porn business for thirty years has gotten me a big dose of just what is being discussed. I am involved in all genres of the industry...print, video, and live. The print and video work is not very high profile for me...but the live porn is a stripclub I own, so there I am as the owner if front of everyone.
I've gone to places where people that took exception to what I do and how I am, called the shots. I've been refused service, told to leave, told I was a "scumbag", told that "people like me ruin the world". I even had a guy spit right in my face at a barber shop...and he even called my Mother to tell her how terrible he thought I was! His daughter had come in looking for work...and I gave her work. Instead of retaliating...I actually understood his position. I wouldn't like me either if I was him. So, I just shrugged it off and walked away. I certainly have the resources to take these people to legal task...but I don't. Why waste my time? I won't change what either one of us think of each other at all.
You can't please everyone. And even more so...you can't make people to do or think, what they refuse to do or think...unless you wanna resort to force, then you can usually get some compliance of conduct.
Legal sanctions typically fans the flames...it will rarely cool it off.
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