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To discuss evil we need a definition of it. I tend to avoid loaded words like "evil" in preference to terms that don't beg questions. To have evil you have to have good, and a system for evaluating which is which, and those systems can be rather subjective. And that is if you limit good and evil to questions of benefits and harms; as soon as you start talking about sin and righteousness then you are assuming even more things, like absolute morality handed down from a deity.
Agree.
This right here is one of several major problems I see in nearly any religious belief system that includes "morality."
Whatever helps and does not harm should be the definition of evil - either from a pragmatic or a "religious" POV. But even a simple sentence like that - what helps and doesn't harm - is impossible to state as an absolute, every case, every time.
For instance, if I stab a baby with a needle, that's evil. But what if the doctor stabs the same baby with an antibiotic that will save the baby's life? Not evil any more.
If I refuse to allow someone hospitality and to stay in my house when that person is starving and cold, that's evil. Right? What if the person who's starving and cold is a pedophile? I have children. Chances are, the pedo is going to try something. Wasn't I evil in that case to let that happen?
It's evil to kill. Is it evil to kill someone who has his hands around the throat of my child, someone who is so large I couldn't possibly just yank him/her off my child, and by the time the cops got their or even a neighbor, my child would be dead?
It's evil to deny a little child food. What if the child has Celiac disease and you deny him wheat bread?
It's evil to kick an animal. Is it evil to kick the animal if it leapt out at me from behind the bushes and currently has its bacteria-laced fangs firmly sunk into my wrist?
It's evil to disrespect and disobey our parents. Is it evil for a 12-year-old girl to push her father off her and scream for help as he's busily trying to rip off her underwear?
It's evil for one sibling to want to physically hurt another. Is it more evil for a child who is constantly abused by her older, bigger sister to hit back WITH the intent to hurt since nothing else - telling parents and teachers, reasoning with the sister, trying to be nice, trying to hide - has worked, than it would be to allow the abuse to go on so that Older Sister grows up still thinking she can and should beat up anyone she wants...so next, she does it to her own kids?
There can NEVER be "absolutes" for morality in every situation. Organized religion runs entirely counter to that fact - it delivers absolutes, then leaves people to scramble (and argue or even fight!) over what's "really meant" by the edict in order to make it fit the given situation. How the hell (pardon the pun) is THAT supposed to ever work out?
That's why I have a hard time getting behind the idea of a God who would deliver and expect moral, and other, absolutes. When you see moral edicts in many religions, yes, including the biggies, they often appear to have been written by an 8-year-old who never thought things through.
So I could take the easy way and simply state....it's your God-claim, you tell me how it could be possible. I'm the atheist here. But I won't do that.
Let me ask then....you say you don't subscribe to a 3 omni god...then which of the 3 do you leave out? Because I'm interpreting you to believe that a god must be all powerful (omnipotent) and all knowing (omniscient, or substitute omnipresent if you prefer) by your statement "And if it did sneak in unawares, then God is incapable of controlling what comes into His universe and therefore He ceases to be God".
I guess we have to first define "3 omni God."
I took it to mean something on the order of God being a Trinity which I don't subscribe to.
Now that you have defined it above, I see what you are getting at.
Of course the Bible does not use terms "omnipotent" or "omnipresent" or "omniscient" to describe God. But for the sake of argument, let us assume the Bible gives credence to these attributes. If that is the case then these attributes do not undermine my base premise.
For instance, I asked somebodynew what he/she believed my main premise to be. His reply was:
"I perceive My God to be caring and is sovereign in His universe."
But that is not my main premise for this thread.
My main premise for this thread is that evil is in God's universe, that God created evil and that He uses it that good will come of it.
Therefore if God indeed is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, this would tend to actually be beneficial toward my case, not detrimental.
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So then not being omnibenevolent is the answer I expect you'd be left with . You've been logically consistent about that part as far as I have read. I just find it difficult to understand why you would rationalize following such a god as I don't see how you can be sure the means justify the ends with such a being.
That certainly is a fair assessment. Since, according to the Bible, "God is working all together for good"; since He is going to reconcile all in the heavens and earth to Himself (Col.1:20), since He is going to save all mankind due to Christ ransoming all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6) and give all mankind immortality and incorruption, we see evil is temporary. God created evil and controls it.
Therefore it is rational to follow such a God Who has the best interest of all mankind at heart.
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Now my answer is of course that there is likely not a god, or that even if there is a god, he must be too indifferent to intervene, not powerful enough to intervene, or simply isn't aware (or capable of being everywhere at once) and thus...looks an awful lot like no-god. For practical purposes I see no reason to distinguish between that version of god and no god at all.
And of course there could be other alternatives such one being this is supposed to be a wicked eon (Gal.1:4) (some translations say "world" instead.) The other alternative is in the next eon to come Christ will come back to earth and set up the heavenly kingdom in Israel and righteousness will be on the earth and the final eon is when the throne of God and Christ are on the earth. In the next two eons which are marked by righteousness, God will intervene. His schedule is not your schedule.
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In terms of how does evil exist in a universe with no god...I think you need to first define "good" & "evil" without the religious trappings and word associations. I use those terms (as I'm sure other atheists do) in debate with theists only because it is more convenient than trying to gather their agreement on a better way to characterize "beneficial " & "harmful ".
Since this is a thread I started and since I am a believer, I feel entitled to use the Scriptural use of the word "evil" which I already have. Evil has no bias.
In the book, The Problem of Evil and The Judgments of God, A.E. Knoch stated it this way:
"We may be sure, then, that evil, as spoken of in the Scriptures, is an act which shatters and demolishes and brings with it a train of trouble and distress. But it is neither right nor wrong in itself." It is a rather large book but can be read here: biblical studies: The Problem of Evil and the Judgments of God - Contents
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Assuming we can skip to the harms caused by agency (non-natural), in my opinion this is where psychology and it's branches begin if one wants to understand why people do harmful things. Psychology, like all science, is not complete (and perhaps never will be) however it can and does tell us an awful lot about ourselves. Our emotions, instincts, and behavior patterns...all continue to be understood better and better each year. And the more we learn about the psychology of the human mind, the more I'm convinced that every person is capable of doing good and doing evil, in the right culmination of environmental conditions and biological factors. That's both comforting and uncomfortable at the same time to me, butI do think it means there can be a sense of salvation for anybody....and no god required for it.
I found this interesting in stating: "I do think it means there can be a sense of salvation for anybody....and no god required for it."
I take it you mean there is no God/god required to save mankind from sin and death? I mean, after all, that is the major premise the apostle Paul gives as to what we are being saved from and saved for immortality and incorruption. If we need no God for that, how do you suppose mankind can undo sin and death to save all those who have already died and turned back to dirt?
Your God created Satan and then whines about "what he hath wrought."
no, you know this. The Heavenly Father created the archangel Lucifer which of it's own will
rebelled against Him, was cast out of Heaven, tempted man here on Earth, man fell into sin
and inherited death and struggle. The perversion which made itself Satan was created good,
but chose evil; thus did man when he ate of the forbidden, knowing evil as he did; believing
the liar that "ye shall be as God".
You know, lack of empathy being the root of what we see as "evil" is something I can really get on board with.
It doesn't just make sense from a "moral" perspective, it makes sense from a biological and anthropological one - we are a social species, and lacking empathy results in a less functional whole organism (tribe, group, town, city, whatever). If we're just killing one another off, not trying to help each other when someone is in pain or ill, etc., etc., we'll die off pretty darned fast.
Perhaps some of what we see as "morals" actually developed for our whole better good from a very practical (continuing and growing the species) perspective.
I am not talking about what others consider evil to be but evil as it is defined by its usage in the Scriptures which definition I have given already.
no, you know this. The Heavenly Father created the archangel Lucifer which of it's own will
rebelled against Him, was cast out of Heaven, tempted man here on Earth, man fell into sin
and inherited death and struggle. The perversion which made itself Satan was created good,
but chose evil; thus did man when he ate of the forbidden, knowing evil as he did; believing
the liar that "ye shall be as God".
Assuming any of this were true (come on), if God created a being that had perversion, and had the capacity to choose evil, and further, was very likely to choose evil over good, then God is still at fault and this creation of perversion as you say, and evil, is directly of God's doing, and was God's desire.
no, you know this. The Heavenly Father created the archangel Lucifer which of it's own will
rebelled against Him, was cast out of Heaven, tempted man here on Earth, man fell into sin
and inherited death and struggle. The perversion which made itself Satan was created good,
but chose evil; thus did man when he ate of the forbidden, knowing evil as he did; believing
the liar that "ye shall be as God".
Your god had foreknowledge of Satan's future dastardliness and created* him anyway.
What a swell guy your god is!
*Presumably from heavenly dirt since I don't think he got around to creating the earth yet.
According to scripture, God created everything, literally everything you see. And everything you don't see. NOTHING happens outside of God's control.
In addition, scripture states that it "was created." If not by God, then you're making an admission that there are other gods out there, not just figureheads or "false" gods but ones which can actually, literally create.
Anyone would have to be deliberately being a stump in order to try to apologetics his/her way out of whether, in this case, God also created Satan.
I am not talking about what others consider evil to be but evil as it is defined by its usage in the Scriptures which definition I have given already.
I didn't see it. Please repeat it or give a post number?
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