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Since this is a thread I started and since I am a believer, I feel entitled to use the Scriptural use of the word "evil"...
You are certainly free to use the word and to use it in that way, but we are not obligated to accept that definition as the basis of further discussion. I don't know how you'd convince me that such a discussion could be fruitful in any way other than to understand your particular theology, which is not really a goal of mine.
My objective is to figure out how reality works and how to usefully engage with it.
My reality is full of humans -- flesh and blood people -- who present both problems and opportunities, who are kind and unkind, empathetic and sociopathic. THAT is the actual landscape I have to navigate. THOSE are the actual problems that present themselves.
I cannot see how trying to understand that through a bunch of asserted non-falsifiable invisible realities and beings that somehow are simultaneously outside our spacetime and yet influence it, is going to help.
Every single bit of evidence points strongly to the human condition being a result of our imperfect understanding of ourselves and how to govern ourselves and indeed how to think about these problems in the first place. Which suggests that adding magical explanations is not the way to go. Indeed it suggests that the supernatural is exactly the WRONG direction.
I found this interesting in stating: "I do think it means there can be a sense of salvation for anybody....and no god required for it."
I take it you mean there is no God/god required to save mankind from sin and death? I mean, after all, that is the major premise the apostle Paul gives as to what we are being saved from and saved for immortality and incorruption. If we need no God for that, how do you suppose mankind can undo sin and death to save all those who have already died and turned back to dirt?
Yes, in loose terms, thats precisely why I brought the concept up. But there is no way (that we are aware of) to resurrect people so unfortunately, thats where the concept diverges.
But I believe that mankind can nearly eradicate human-created evils (or agent-caused harms) in practical terms. But you first have to start with what causes these behaviors...no matter how complicated & numerous the factors...and then work to alleviate those factors.
Or to put it in other words...a better society produces people who want to better the society. Thats a very simplistic way to describe complex work to be done...but I do think it is possible (however unlikely in my lifetime) if we can get past a lot of our political and socioeconomic self-destructive behaviors. 2 steps forward, 1 step back is the likely path to such a utopia but its the best we can try for in my view.
You can't just say: "That is an interesting concept Eusebius. I hadn't really thought about it that way."
No I can't becasue it's not an interesting concept in the least. It's complete delusional thinking at best.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
The important point to take away from why evil is in the world is that God created it, controls it and one day will do away with it when it has accomplished its salutary work. God, as the Bible says, truly is working all together for good.
Or to put it in other words...a better society produces people who want to better the society. Thats a very simplistic way to describe complex work to be done...but I do think it is possible (however unlikely in my lifetime) if we can get past a lot of our political and socioeconomic self-destructive behaviors. 2 steps forward, 1 step back is the likely path to such a utopia but its the best we can try for in my view.
I totally agree but understand why so many people shrink from solutions that are multigenerational in scope. It's hard to see the point in something you won't live to experience. For some it is a hard reality that as mortals we will not see an ideal world but can only work toward it.
It's the same reason we are unlikely to build even one generational starship and send even a tiny portion of humanity out to the stars. It is too complex and expensive and risky a problem with no payoff in the lifetimes of those contemplating it, and absent some huge innovation like the invention of limitless free energy and matter synthesis it's probably not going to happen just because some scientists think it'd be cool to do.
That is part of religion's appeal. It, too, recognizes tacitly that it can't really impact the human condition other than very tangentially by a sort of placebo effect ... so its promises are always fulfilled in the future, and generally beyond the grave. But it does, for some at least, relieve the existential angst of the unresolved human condition. That is why Eusebius is "comforted" by the notion that all is ultimately going to to "work together for good". It provides a way to rationalize the shortcomings or outright suffering of one's present life, with some "eternal weight of glory" which, of course, cannot be examined or verified, but certainly sounds lofty and noble. And all one has to do is die, go to heaven, see the reality of the supernatural and patiently wait for the passion play of the ages to play out. It doesn't even really require any effort on the part of the believer, other than patience. To convince yourself of this convenient fiction and then to sit placidly and await it -- yes, it does have a certain appeal for many.
My life story arc on the other hand has made such notions valueless for me. I have never been able to accept as a general rule that PRESENT suffering can in any way be addressed or remedied, nor compassion and empathy expressed for it, by some FUTURE remedy. I can see no relevance for that except to the limited extent that there is something that I can do now that might in the future make life better for someone not yet born. For example if I invent a cure for cancer, that is pretty satisfying use of my limited time on earth even if it is more limited than usual because I am dying of something unrelated like maybe Hepatitis C. But the notion that god will cure Hep C in the sweet by and by is no help at all for my personal suffering. If god cares, he can act now. Anything else is an excuse and still leaves my loved ones bereaved of me, etc.
What it boils down to is that religion promises the moon, but not now, later. And so it is nothing but talk -- all talk, all the time. And it's even worse in Eusebius' version because he claims prayer doesn't change what god has decreed will happen, that god is free to hurt and harm us because he can guarantee a good outcome in the end. So there is nothing to hope in -- not even that, at least sometimes, if you ask just so, with pure enough motives, in a desperate enough situation, god might help you in some way. You are just as on your own in terms of your present life situation as any godless atheist wandering the universe like a lost shade -- even more so because there's a god who sees, is able to act on your behalf, and won't. So near and yet so far.
Your God created Satan and then whines about "what he hath wrought.
Where did God whine about creating Satan? TroutDude said he just made it up.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
According to scripture, God created everything, literally everything you see. And everything you don't see. NOTHING happens outside of God's control.
In addition, scripture states that it "was created." If not by God, then you're making an admission that there are other gods out there, not just figureheads or "false" gods but ones which can actually, literally create.
Anyone would have to be deliberately being a stump in order to try to apologetics his/her way out of whether, in this case, God also created Satan.
I agree. God did create Satan. But He never whined about it as TroutDude wrongly stated.
Since God did create Satan a liar and murder from the beginning, we must conclude that God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence.
What it boils down to is that religion promises the moon, but not now, later. And so it is nothing but talk -- all talk, all the time. And it's even worse in Eusebius' version because he claims prayer doesn't change what god has decreed will happen, that god is free to hurt and harm us because he can guarantee a good outcome in the end. So there is nothing to hope in -- not even that, at least sometimes, if you ask just so, with pure enough motives, in a desperate enough situation, god might help you in some way. You are just as on your own in terms of your present life situation as any godless atheist wandering the universe like a lost shade -- even more so because there's a god who sees, is able to act on your behalf, and won't. So near and yet so far.
What a belief-system of despair that is!
I'm not despairing and neither are hundreds of thousands like me who hold to the truths I hold to.
If someone did pray for something and that prayer was answered, it was answered because God knew in advance that it was within His will and plan it be answered.
What I always laugh at is some holiness churches will pray concerning one of their parishioners having to go to the doctor "Dear God we pray that the doctors don't find anything!" But what if the person has cancer and God answers their prayer and the doctors don't find it and the person dies?
I suppose every promise your mom or dad made to you, you just chalked it up to them lying. And I suppose you never ever promised anything to your children or wife.
Religion, well at least Christianity never promised the moon. But it does have God promising to save all mankind. Why you think that is so terrible is beyond me. Maybe you figure He will never be good on His promise. After all, if you never were good for your promises or your parents, why should He?
Where did God whine about creating Satan? TroutDude said he just made it up.
I agree. God did create Satan. But He never whined about it as TroutDude wrongly stated.
Oh now you're just being silly with stating someone is wrong...then what you found "wrong" about it was just one portion, obviously NOT the portion someone would assume, and semantics at that. Really, Eusie?
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Since God did create Satan a liar and murder from the beginning, we must conclude that God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence.
No, we don't have to conclude that. There could be any one of a number of reasons. He could be a sadist. He could be stupid and not realize consequences. He could lack empathy entirely. He could just be playing a game and this is part of the game. It doesn't have to be that "it was necessary"...for any reason...and anyway, how can anything be "necessary" to God? It's God. Right?
Oh now you're just being silly with stating someone is wrong...then what you found "wrong" about it was just one portion, obviously NOT the portion someone would assume, and semantics at that. Really, Eusie?
No, we don't have to conclude that. There could be any one of a number of reasons. He could be a sadist. He could be stupid and not realize consequences. He could lack empathy entirely. He could just be playing a game and this is part of the game. It doesn't have to be that "it was necessary"...for any reason...and anyway, how can anything be "necessary" to God? It's God. Right?
His argument seems to be I believe god is good. Therefore god is good.
If one comes to the conclusion that God is all powerful, all present and all knowing, then, yes, we must conclude that God determined it was necessary to create someone like Satan. You know, Satan didn't create himself.
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There could be any one of a number of reasons. He could be a sadist.
We are talking Scripturally here. The Scriptures don't call Him a sadist. And no, since God is everywhere, knows the end from the beginning and in fact declares the end from the beginning, there can only be one reason and that reason is because He needed a Satan.
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He could be stupid and not realize consequences.
I don't go by "could be's."
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He could lack empathy entirely.
I don't go by could's.
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He could just be playing a game and this is part of the game.
Nope, sorry. Since you use "could" so often, it is a sign you really don't know why.
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It doesn't have to be that "it was necessary"...for any reason...and anyway, how can anything be "necessary" to God? It's God. Right?
It does have to be necessary. If God created the Sun, He obviously thought it was necessary to heat the planet. Tell me you are just having fun at our expense.
His argument seems to be I believe god is good. Therefore god is good.
No, that would be circular reasoning. Try again.
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