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Actually, you only go by could's, as you are presuming that "God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence."
Does it say in the Bible, directly, that "God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence"?
If not, and you're just assuming, or extrapolating - something you don't allow anyone else to do - then you definitely are "go(ing) by could's." And only by could's.
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We are talking Scripturally here. The Scriptures don't call Him a sadist
They do call him some other things, such as "jealous." (Actually, he calls himself jealous.) Which pretty much leaves "ALL good" out of the equation, so again, your reasoning doesn't hold up.
Since we have quite easily taken "all good" out of the equation, yes, God, per the story, could have had any one of a number of reasons for creating something awful like Satan, and no, there's no reason to believe all of those reasons, or even any of them, had to be "good."
Actually, you only go by could's, as you are presuming that "God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence."
No, I never said the reason He created Satan COULD BE because of this or that. What is stated above is a factual statement, not a "maybe" or "could be" statement.
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Does it say in the Bible, directly, that "God determined it was necessary to His universe to bring such an evil being into existence"?
We can deduct that it was necessary.
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If not, and you're just assuming, or extrapolating - something you don't allow anyone else to do - then you definitely are "go(ing) by could's." And only by could's.
Not really.
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They do call him some other things, such as "jealous." (Actually, he calls himself jealous.) Which pretty much leaves "ALL good" out of the equation, so again, your reasoning doesn't hold up.
And just what does "jealous" have to do with the reason God created Satan?
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Since we have quite easily taken "all good" out of the equation, yes, God, per the story, could have had any one of a number of reasons for creating something awful like Satan, and no, there's no reason to believe all of those reasons, or even any of them, had to be "good."
Going strictly by the Scriptures we actually do have to believe it was for ultimate good that God created Satan since the Scriptures tell us that "God is working all together for good."
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have seen today! Eusie saying someone else is using circular reasoning! BWWAAHHHHAAAHAHAHA.
This is how you reason Eusie:
Nope, sorry, that doesn't apply to me. Oh, and try to keep on the thread. It's about evil, not circular reasoning.
Nope, sorry, that doesn't apply to me. Oh, and try to keep on the thread. It's about evil, not circular reasoning.
And who brought up circular reasoning here Eusie? You did. This fits you and most Christians to a T. If it doesn't, then you should explain why you believe the Bible to be true. The thread is ultimately pointless, as you have nothing to say other than, "Goddunnit!", and constantly play word games. Don't be obtuse.
I'm not despairing and neither are hundreds of thousands like me who hold to the truths I hold to.
If someone did pray for something and that prayer was answered, it was answered because God knew in advance that it was within His will and plan it be answered.
What I always laugh at is some holiness churches will pray concerning one of their parishioners having to go to the doctor "Dear God we pray that the doctors don't find anything!" But what if the person has cancer and God answers their prayer and the doctors don't find it and the person dies?
I suppose every promise your mom or dad made to you, you just chalked it up to them lying. And I suppose you never ever promised anything to your children or wife.
Religion, well at least Christianity never promised the moon. But it does have God promising to save all mankind. Why you think that is so terrible is beyond me. Maybe you figure He will never be good on His promise. After all, if you never were good for your promises or your parents, why should He?
My only point is that it is not an appealing value proposition for everyone. I'm glad you're not despairing. Your belief system would leave me in despair though.
Yes, "god don't let the doctor find anything" is like the old joke about the guy with one withered hand who prayed "god make my hand like the other one". Be careful what you ask for, and be specific ;-)
I don't even begin to understand what sort of parallel you're trying to draw between god and my parents. My parents always kept their promises to me; if there was something they couldn't provide they didn't promise it. If they couldn't fulfill a promise they explained why they couldn't and why the promise was ill advised. I did the same for my own kids. Because that is how a father deals with his children.
Not that it matters in your scheme of things because you apparently qualify the promises of god pretty much out of existence. I will admit that if my expectations had been set that way, I would not have been as disillusioned about god. But then again I probably would have seen through the charade a lot sooner, too. If god is a father then his role involves protecting / watching over his children, patiently teaching them, and showing them how to be mature, happy, fulfilled adults who engage effectively with life and society. It does not involve his children having no discernible difference between how their life and the life of an infidel plays out.
I will admit that as an idealistic young person teaching VBS and going to a Bible Institute to be a more effective layperson, I really did expect my life to be blessed -- to have some speed bumps, sure, but to have my "correct" worldview to inform my actions in a way that tended to breed happiness and contentment. I expected to be married once rather then three times, to find ease and stability and reliability in my personal life, and for life to be generally explicable rather than baffling as it seemed to be for the unwashed unbelieving masses. I did not price in a divorce, being widowed, watching my eldest brother die like a whipped puppy wondering why god rewarded him with bone cancer, watched even my one remaining devout sibling's family drama -- that stuff wasn't supposed to happen to "real Christians!" I didn't expect my godly mother to die in a car accident or my godly father to die from in large part from the guilt of causing it. These are largely first world problems of course ... and of no consequence in what passes for the great scheme of things ... but neither is it in any meaningful respect different from the miasma of chaos that is everyone else's personal life. So it seemed prudent to me to ditch all the complicated rules and taboos and magic incantations and charades about how great the Christian life is and start dealing strictly in reality. I have found this makes me more able to flex with each new ridiculous situation that life presents to me, and as a huge bonus, I don't have to wonder what I did to deserve that new ridiculous situation. It is just stuff happening at the end of some random causal chains. It is not personal. It is not my fault. It is not god's fault. It is neither just nor unjust. It is just life. I'm not a special snowflake in the palm of god's hand, nor the unworthy scarping on his left boot-heel. I am just one more person who finds themselves with an unasked for existence that I would like to make sense of using the best tools available.
And who brought up circular reasoning here Eusie? You did. This fits you and most Christians to a T. If it doesn't, then you should explain why you believe the Bible to be true. The thread is ultimately pointless, as you have nothing to say other than, "Goddunnit!", and constantly play word games. Don't be obtuse.
Nope, sorry, the thread is about evil. I have never said "Goddunnit!" Please refrain from such puerile remarks. I'm trying to have an adult conversation here.
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have seen today! Eusie saying someone else is using circular reasoning! BWWAAHHHHAAAHAHAHA.
This is how you reason Eusie:
The worst part of the circular reasoning used to support the Bible as the word of God is that the critical claim "The Bible tells us it is the word of God" is NOT TRUE!! Nowhere does the Bible ever claim it is the word of God. It identifies Jesus as the Word of God, NOT the Bible. This single misinterpretation in the "precepts and doctrines of men" counts for much of the corruption of Christ's Gospel (Good News) into OT Bad News.
No, I never said the reason He created Satan COULD BE because of this or that. What is stated above is a factual statement, not a "maybe" or "could be" statement.
No, you never said "could be," although the fact is, you don't know any more than anyone else does, not even scripturally. You said a "maybe" as a fact, we've established that. That's not so weird or surprising, IMO, though of course the bottom line is: what you wish were a fact still isn't.
Unless you feel you have a personal direct line into God's mind? I wonder how much God would appreciate such a presumption.
So, moving forward from there...
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We can deduct that it was necessary.
Oh, now we're deducing even if it isn't scriptural?
Except when you don't want others to deduce...at which time...deduction is against the rules...we don't SEE that exact word fragment in scripture, so...No wait...NOW we can deduce....
Sorry, Eusie, it is so hard to keep up when you continue to change the rules. Just give me a minute to catch up, I'm taking notes here so as not to get confused at the constant game-changing on your part, I think a flow chart is actually best, BRB.
My only point is that it is not an appealing value proposition for everyone. I'm glad you're not despairing. Your belief system would leave me in despair though.
Yes, "god don't let the doctor find anything" is like the old joke about the guy with one withered hand who prayed "god make my hand like the other one". Be careful what you ask for, and be specific ;-)
I don't even begin to understand what sort of parallel you're trying to draw between god and my parents. My parents always kept their promises to me; if there was something they couldn't provide they didn't promise it. If they couldn't fulfill a promise they explained why they couldn't and why the promise was ill advised. I did the same for my own kids. Because that is how a father deals with his children.
I was trying to get you to see that if you looked forward to what your parents promised, then why think it strange for me for looking forward to what my heavenly Father has promised?
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Not that it matters in your scheme of things because you apparently qualify the promises of god pretty much out of existence. I will admit that if my expectations had been set that way, I would not have been as disillusioned about god. But then again I probably would have seen through the charade a lot sooner, too. If god is a father then his role involves protecting / watching over his children, patiently teaching them, and showing them how to be mature, happy, fulfilled adults who engage effectively with life and society. It does not involve his children having no discernible difference between how their life and the life of an infidel plays out.
I'm sure you watch over your child's every move even if the child doesn't live with you. What you expect of God as a Father you fail in your own life. But this gets to the quick of things. Where in the New Testament does it ever say God will protect believers from every kind of bad thing? Did God save Jesus from the cross? Did God save Paul from all the negative aspects of being beat, whipped, jailed, starved etc.? Did Paul consider God to be a bad Father? No. God never promised us we would be free of trials and tribulations. In fact, they build character. What do you expect, God to powder puff our behinds every day and coddle us even as mature people?
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I will admit that as an idealistic young person teaching VBS and going to a Bible Institute to be a more effective layperson, I really did expect my life to be blessed -- to have some speed bumps, sure, but to have my "correct" worldview to inform my actions in a way that tended to breed happiness and contentment. I expected to be married once rather then three times, to find ease and stability and reliability in my personal life, and for life to be generally explicable rather than baffling as it seemed to be for the unwashed unbelieving masses.
I truly understand. Been there, done that. It was hell.
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I did not price in a divorce, being widowed, watching my eldest brother die like a whipped puppy wondering why god rewarded him with bone cancer, watched even my one remaining devout sibling's family drama -- that stuff wasn't supposed to happen to "real Christians!"
Did your church tell you that? You surely didn't read that in the Bible that it was not supposed to happen.
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I didn't expect my godly mother to die in a car accident or my godly father to die from in large part from the guilt of causing it. These are largely first world problems of course ... and of no consequence in what passes for the great scheme of things ... but neither is it in any meaningful respect different from the miasma of chaos that is everyone else's personal life. So it seemed prudent to me to ditch all the complicated rules and taboos and magic incantations and charades about how great the Christian life is and start dealing strictly in reality.
I understand. Especially if you were taught improperly that these things just should not happen to "godly people."
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I have found this makes me more able to flex with each new ridiculous situation that life presents to me, and as a huge bonus, I don't have to wonder what I did to deserve that new ridiculous situation. It is just stuff happening at the end of some random causal chains. It is not personal. It is not my fault. It is not god's fault. It is neither just nor unjust. It is just life. I'm not a special snowflake in the palm of god's hand, nor the unworthy scarping on his left boot-heel. I am just one more person who finds themselves with an unasked for existence that I would like to make sense of using the best tools available.
I'm sure God perfectly understands.
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- then you definitely are "go(ing) by could's." And only by could's.
