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I see the future brighter. It seems younger generations abandon these churches and beleifs when they get out into the real world for the most part. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I guess I watch too much Logo!
BTW, Denverian, I was kidding about hooking me up. I've got my designs on someone who lives in my building at the moment
I wasn't kidding when I said the only single gay men I know are that way for a reason! But when you're a couple for so many years, you tend to mostly have couple friends, both straight and gay, so I'm not a good one for matchmaking
Good luck with that. I met my partner in the laundry room of our apartment building almost 13 years ago, so maybe that's a lucky sign for you!
I was brought up in a strict, evangelical household and really thought it was all crap from a very young age. I had friends who stayed that way once on their own (no longer friends with me) but I ran from it as soon as I could. I don't know how widespread the "Jesus Camp" type people are, but they're very scary and cult-like. Probaly a small minority - I hope. But brainwashing from the day of birth seems to be what evangelicals do.
someone made the comment earlier that it is not realistic to say "love the sinner, hate the sin." i would say that it is definitely hard, but is not so hard that it becomes unrealistic or impossible. i just think that people need to stop trying to be *tolerant* and start being truly charitable, truly Christlike.
i think that it is entirely possible for a religious person, even a religious group, to sincerely take in and love a person despite whatever perceived faults that person might have.
if we cannot disagree with a lifestyle without becoming hostile to it, than i think that we need to reevaluate our attitude and objectives.
now, i believe that this is a two-edged sword. when i was a missionary in south america, and a few times since then, and was asked what my position was on homosexuality, i would repsond honestly.
i do not approve.
but many people would look past the efforts that i (and i know that i am not alone) was initiating in order to understand and appreciate the person, despite their differences, and decide that based solely off of the fact that i do not approve of homosexuality, that i am a bigot, and therefore not reasonable in my viewpoint on homosexuality.
i think that there is a large difference between mainstream religion (christianity even) and fred phelps. i am still in debate as to where along that line stand the tv evangelical helfire-preaching ministers. but as far as mainstream chirstianity goes, i think i am still considered conservative. most of my christian associates are still more liberal in their views than i am.
ok, i'm wandering. point is, phelps does not represent christianity, not in a doctrinal sense, and not in a popular opinion sense. nor does his existence, and that of others like him, mean that brothers and sisters cannot communicate and coexist peacefully and respectfully even though they share different perspectives of life.
ok, i'm wandering. point is, phelps does not represent christianity, not in a doctrinal sense, and not in a popular opinion sense. nor does his existence, and that of others like him, mean that brothers and sisters cannot communicate and coexist peacefully and respectfully even though they share different perspectives of life.
aaron out.
Coexist, yes. We have little choice in that. But I could never be close to anyone who believed that I've "made a wrong lifestyle choice", including my own parents.
Could you honestly be good friends with someone who told you, "I disagree with your choice to be an evangelical Christian and believe your are very wrong and morally bankrupt for making that choice to be a part of a wrong religion". Plus knowing that person wanted to outlaw evangelicals from marrying and wanted the right to fire them for being evangelical? Seriously.
I think sadly one cannot ignore him and his ilk and one must take his behaviour and hateful words very seriously indeed. They are designed to harm and hurt, upset and distress. They are hateful and bigoted, nasty, petty and vicious. They target people in most distressing and vulnerable times and they must not be allowed to get away with it.
I am hoping that most reasonable beings can rally against him and take any actions possible.
In a way his actions, public as they are polarise the issue and may do his "cause" more harm than good in the long term.
He has obviously managed to instil outrage and a sense of loathing in most people and I see this as a positive thing in this sea of hatred and bigotry.
One cannot let people like that get away with being able to spout his vile rhetoric and it gives us all a chance to be counted and stand up to him and his bullies.
IMO freedom of expression should stop at anything which is an enticement to violence and hatred and I would like to see him prosecuted under the law as deniers of the Holocaust in Europe are for example ( NO I am not equating him with Hitler for those who will try and find offence) . I feel that our human rights to speak out have to be curtailed when they purposefully incite others to hatred and violent behaviour. Sometimes I wish we had a declaration of human duties as well as one of human rights. As humans it behoves us to behave with a tad more dignity and kindness and a lot more compassion and empathy.
It would be unthinkable to ignore people like him as in my opinion they are dangerous fundamentalists and need to be stopped. It would be easy to dismiss him as an inconsequential bully but he does true harm and so do his followers.
Nobody deserves to be picketed at a Loved one's funeral. It is nothing short of evil and I do take it very seriously indeed.
I feel all the publicity he is getting might be what he wants in the short term and part of me wishes that the media would stop playing the game of sensationalism and ignore him but in a way all this publicity seems to have brought to the fore mainly people who are virulently opposed to this kind of unacceptable behaviour and that is good.
Most Christian groups, are distancing themselves from him and denouncing him as not being a Christian and this may hopefully ostracise him further and weaken his influence.
What scares me though is that some "vulnerable" people might decide to join him and in that respect media coverage could almost be seen as a recruiting tool for all the extremists and malcontents around.
This has rallied many people against him and I hope that people will start acting , launching their own protests and fighting this man.
As the saying go :
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
It is up to us to root out these twisted individuals and the only way not to condone their actions is to do something about it.
Maybe his little meetings should be picketed by people of all Faiths and Philosophies and he should be sent packing wherever he goes and grave concern expressed about his actions to legal and elected representatives too. The louder the voice the more effective the protest. Being outraged is good. Doing something about it is better !
Those people feel on other's weaknesses and apathy sadly.
I believe people have tried picketing his church, but they later regretted it. He's an evil man with many tricks up his sleeve. Here's the book about him and his life, "Addicted to Hate": Addicted to Hate
Anyway, he used to clog up every fax machine in the Kansas capital building with nasty faxes, calling the Governor a "Jezebellian *****" and other things like that. They also make their living suing poeple (most of his kids are dis-barred lawyers) so if you're on thier radar, you may find yourself in court. At one time, he seemed to have the entire state government held hostage, with everyone afraid to retaliate in any way, legally speaking. (He moved to Topeka, KS specifically because the zip codes start with "666" - something about being in the center of Satan's kingdom or something crazy like that. He's actually from Mississippi).
Sorry about the "bleep" above - it's a word he uses often and I believe is in the Bible, at least certain versions.
There's a lot of things that are in the Bible that the 'system' doesn't like.....
for instance, did you know that Peter denied Christ before the **** crowed twice?
OMG! LOL!
I think passive resistance and ignoring him and his church are the way to go. At Matt Shephard's funeral a group (including many of his friends) showed up wearing angel costumes with huge wings. When they all turned face forward in front of the protesters their wings created a solid shield obscuring the westboro group.
Other funerals have used similar tactics and I feel this is most effective. Not only does it offer some protection to mourners, it tends to take the focus of the media of of them as they concentrate on the creative tactics of the group finding legal ways to block the protest.
I think passive resistance and ignoring him and his church are the way to go. At Matt Shephard's funeral a group (including many of his friends) showed up wearing angel costumes with huge wings. When they all turned face forward in front of the protesters their wings created a solid shield obscuring the westboro group.
Other funerals have used similar tactics and I feel this is most effective. Not only does it offer some protection to mourners, it tends to take the focus of the media of of them as they concentrate on the creative tactics of the group finding legal ways to block the protest.
That's pretty awesome. The fact that there's even anything to discuss with this guy just turns my stomach.
Seriously "Too Late To Pray"??
Anyway, I appreciate the folks who take the time to go out and counter this man's garbage. Good on them!
Here's a link to an article that shows a picture of the "angels"; they travel as much as they can to block his group
CNN - Suspect pleads guilty in beating death of gay college student - April 5, 1999 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9904/05/gay.attack.trail.02/ - broken link)
Funny, in spite of earlier comments I attend church regularly (episcopal) and no one's ever said they hate me there
There are plenty of accepting churches. We have a Presbyterian church nearby that's accepting and an Episcopal one. I know some churches claim churches like this are wrong and not "Bible believing", but really, whatever church you choose, another church within Christianity thinks it's wrong. Although you would probably find that every U.S. church other than Westboro Baptist agrees that Westboro is wrong!
We tried Dignity and MCC many years ago, and didn't care much for them. I don't know, just a little "too gay" for me.
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