The unmoral god of the bible not only condones, but threatens rape. (perspective, homosexuality)
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He also had no problem with ordering babies killed by his people. You always have the excuse that God knows best.
Is it moral for a religious person to do anything if they believe that is what God wants? Is it moral to commit genocide against your enemy because they might grow up to harm you?
Evil begets evil. I ask again, how often in history do you see the children of an evil dictator or ruler become a good moral person unlike their father, hmmm? If nothing else, the children are often even more of a monster. Look at the current ruler of North Korea. He's even worse than papa.
Therefore, it's illogical to think that an immoral evil God would create a race of people who are more righteous and more. Evil does not beget good.
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Originally Posted by badlander
I do not believe in your God or anyone else's god but do strongly disagree with those who claim we can only get our morals from the Bible and then have to do mental gymnastics to explain away parts of the Bible. I think that deep down inside you see immoral acts in it as well but use the excuses of wicked people or thoughts were different to sweep away those deeds.
And I disagree with those who think we should just make up morals as we go along. That's really a position of arrogance to think that our modern society is more moral than previous generations, that previous generations were mostly evil people and suddenly now we are good? Cmon. It's easy to look back at history and judge. But it's not an accurate judgement if you don't have all the facts.
Evil begets evil. I ask again, how often in history do you see the children of an evil dictator or ruler become a good moral person unlike their father, hmmm? If nothing else, the children are often even more of a monster. Look at the current ruler of North Korea. He's even worse than papa.
Therefore, it's illogical to think that an immoral evil God would create a race of people who are more righteous and more. Evil does not beget good.
And I disagree with those who think we should just make up morals as we go along. That's really a position of arrogance to think that our modern society is more moral than previous generations, that previous generations were mostly evil people and suddenly now we are good? Cmon. It's easy to look back at history and judge. But it's not an accurate judgement if you don't have all the facts.
Very few evil dictators are followed up by their children. North Korea is much like a monarchy. What harm did Stlalin's daughter do to the world? Is Nate Phelps evil like his father? Some of the Czars could be considered evil, some not but the are all in direct lineage.
But you would paint all the children of these men as evil and then whst? Is it moral to execute children of evil men?
The thing still is, if your god exists and we get our morals from the Bible why are you so quick to explain away what you don't like but hold so steadfast to things you agree with such as being anti gay?
Evil begets evil. I ask again, how often in history do you see the children of an evil dictator or ruler become a good moral person unlike their father, hmmm? If nothing else, the children are often even more of a monster. Look at the current ruler of North Korea. He's even worse than papa.
Therefore, it's illogical to think that an immoral evil God would create a race of people who are more righteous and more. Evil does not beget good.
I am well acquainted with a number of people who are far better morally and ethically and relationally than their parents ever were. And also a number who are far worse. By your logic, the bad seed of a good set of parents proves that good begets evil.
People are, or are not, evil -- not based on some eldritch influence of good or evil from their family of origin, but based on their own actions in the world. Certainly it is harder to rise above an upbringing that involved abuse, bad role modeling, and/or poverty and want. But it CAN and HAS been done, and not rarely, either.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
And I disagree with those who think we should just make up morals as we go along. That's really a position of arrogance to think that our modern society is more moral than previous generations, that previous generations were mostly evil people and suddenly now we are good? Cmon. It's easy to look back at history and judge. But it's not an accurate judgement if you don't have all the facts.
Who thinks that morals should be "made up"? I sure don't. Maybe you're confusing the notion that morality is societally anchored, subjective and mutable, with the notion that it is "made up" according to no plan and with no input from reality or humanity at large. But if you are, you're being deliberately obtuse.
Morality is a positive feedback loop within society, basically. It can evolve (e.g., we have a very elevated understanding of the immorality of slavery in 2016 compared to 1816) or devolve (e.g. a hypothetical Trump presidency where laws against human rights abuses are "broadened" to enable torture). But over time it enables the sort of civil society that most of us wish to live in. Because it isn't made up on a whim, even if it is consensus-based and imperfect.
Who thinks that morals should be "made up"? I sure don't. Maybe you're confusing the notion that morality is societally anchored, subjective and mutable, with the notion that it is "made up" according to no plan and with no input from reality or humanity at large. But if you are, you're being deliberately obtuse.
Morality is a positive feedback loop within society, basically. It can evolve (e.g., we have a very elevated understanding of the immorality of slavery in 2016 compared to 1816) or devolve (e.g. a hypothetical Trump presidency where laws against human rights abuses are "broadened" to enable torture). But over time it enables the sort of civil society that most of us wish to live in. Because it isn't made up on a whim, even if it is consensus-based and imperfect.
Indeed. This very forum has a code of conduct that works pretty well and enables (mostly) civilized discourse, without any reference to the Bible or Christianity. It works well enough that conservative Christians use this forum regularly, including those who think morality is impossible without the Bible.
Very few evil dictators are followed up by their children. North Korea is much like a monarchy. What harm did Stlalin's daughter do to the world? Is Nate Phelps evil like his father? Some of the Czars could be considered evil, some not but the are all in direct lineage.
Stalin's daughter? Cmon, women tend not to have a nature prone to cruelity so that is a far reach. Funny that you don't mention Vasily Stalin who certainly wasn't a saint. As for Nate Phelps, well given my opinion of atheists, best I not say anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
But you would paint all the children of these men as evil and then whst? Is it moral to execute children of evil men?
Is it moral to punish children who are murderers? That's a real problem in our society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
The thing still is, if your god exists and we get our morals from the Bible why are you so quick to explain away what you don't like but hold so steadfast to things you agree with such as being anti gay?
It is a ridiculous position because guess what, we are NOT God. You can only argue the morality if we humans are equal creators. The creator and the creation are not on a level playing field. Life is a gift. Everything we have in this life belongs to God. IF you gave your neighbor a gift of a gun and they went around murdering people, according to you, it would be immoral to take that gift back. God has ever moral right to take away life. Now if He is making people suffer and die for His own amusement, that's completely different, but that is certainly not going on here in these stories.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Stalin's daughter? Cmon, women tend not to have a nature prone to cruelity so that is a far reach. Funny that you don't mention Vasily Stalin who certainly wasn't a saint. As for Nate Phelps, well given my opinion of atheists, best I not say anything.
Stalin's daughter? Cmon, women tend not to have a nature prone to cruelity so that is a far reach. Funny that you don't mention Vasily Stalin who certainly wasn't a saint. As for Nate Phelps, well given my opinion of atheists, best I not say anything.
Is it moral to punish children who are murderers? That's a real problem in our society.
It is a ridiculous position because guess what, we are NOT God. You can only argue the morality if we humans are equal creators. The creator and the creation are not on a level playing field. Life is a gift. Everything we have in this life belongs to God. IF you gave your neighbor a gift of a gun and they went around murdering people, according to you, it would be immoral to take that gift back. God has ever moral right to take away life. Now if He is making people suffer and die for His own amusement, that's completely different, but that is certainly not going on here in these stories.
Once again you say one thing and then completely change the story when asked to explain it. If we are talking about children who murder we are then not talking about children of those who murder.
If you think that atheists are worse people than those in the Westboro Baptist Church that is your right to do so however you will be judged on that. Of course we are not God, I do not think there is a god and if there is a god probably not your god. You do not get the right to decide who can argue morality or under which conditions it can be discussed. If you are willing to d do mental gymnastics in order to argue that some of the things in the Bible are moral just don't be surprised if others find your argument wanting.
I could not legally give my neighbor a gun unless he had a firearms aquisition certificate nor do I have a gun to give nor does your claim that I would think it is immoral to take that gun away makes any sense. But it seems to me that if God did exist and he fave us life as a gift it was not really a gift if he could kill us all anytime he wants to because he gave us that gift. But if you believe that it's fine.
This particular story about David is analogous to us as human beings as we have flaws just like David. We need to be on our guard, David knew his attention should be focused on the war and yet his thoughts were focused on Bathsheba He had all the right intentions of being a King but couldn't shake the imagery of seeing this naked woman, it had control of him, just like sin can take control of our lives. David paid heavily, four-fold for doing evil things as brought out in the parable by Nathan as a precursor to his debacle.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,925,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perry335654
This particular story about David is analogous to us as human beings as we have flaws just like David. We need to be on our guard, David knew his attention should be focused on the war and yet his thoughts were focused on Bathsheba He had all the right intentions of being a King but couldn't shake the imagery of seeing this naked woman, it had control of him, just like sin can take control of our lives. David paid heavily, four-fold for doing evil things as brought out in the parable by Nathan as a precursor to his debacle.
Unanswered, once again, is what did the *women* do to deserve a public raping? Why do you fundamentalists either avoid that question, or dance around it?
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