We already know there is an afterlife! (quotes, divorce, behavior)

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

so anything you don't know, anything you don't understand, anything you don't accept, anything you don't agree with is "imaginary made up crap." got it.

No, anything people claim to be true and then can not support with a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning is "imaginary made up crap".

Quite the distinction, but thank you once again for willfully and intentionally misrepresenting my posts in order to avoid actually replying to them.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

i have no desire to convince him of anything, or prove anything to him.

You say you have "no desire" but apparently the truth is you have "no capability" to do so. You are making claims and then not just supporting those claims badly.... you are outright refusing to support them AT ALL. And I wager that is not because you do not desire to do so, but you simply are unable to. You. Have. No. Substantiation. For. These. claims.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

truly thinking people who truly have a desire to learn and understand, don't go about it with demands, hostility, contempt, insults, and ridicule.

Except I used no hostility, contempt, insults or ridicule did I? No I did not. Anywhere. I merely pointed to the claims YOU made and asked you if you can substantiate those claims in even the smallest way.

The apparent answer is: No. You can not.

[openmike]

Yep eternity is a promise , but I fear most of we Christians make up saved yet " lukewarm" and run the risk of being spewed ( vomited) into Tribulation? Maybe I should just speak for myself?

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by openmike

Yep eternity is a promise , but I fear most of we Christians make up saved yet " lukewarm" and run the risk of being spewed ( vomited) into Tribulation? Maybe I should just speak for myself?

I should, unless you can somehow provide some valid support for these supposed claims. If it helps, I can offer a possible (but unproven) atheist afterlife which everyone gets, lukewarm or not.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

so anything you don't know, anything you don't understand, anything you don't accept, anything you don't agree with is "imaginary made up crap." got it.

In a way. Anything we don't know is unknown. Anything we don't understand in unexplained. Any claims of fact or explanation are therefore are speculative hypotheses requiring validation before we buy into them. If the validation is not forthcoming then of course we won't accept it or agree with it. And that is logically the mandatory position.

Insistence on these claims or explanations being taken not just as plausible but bet your wad fact when no valid case for their factuality or reliability (rather resorting to personalities) is made does beg to have them dismissed as 'imaginary made -up crap'.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Except I used no hostility, contempt, insults or ridicule did I? No I did not. Anywhere.

Yes, you did:

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

You are simply making this crap up as you go along
the tripe you posted earlier on the thread
you simply made it up
Imagination is a wonderful thing
the imaginary world in your head
you simply have SQUAT to discuss

[southernbored]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

Yes, you did:

And nowhere was he wrong.


See, this is the problem with a lot of theists, yourself included. You think that your opinions for which you have no evidence or anything close to resembling it, are above reproach.


Hate to tell you Tzap, but just because you believe something, that doesn't make it true. Provide some backing evidence, or stop making truth claims.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by southernbored

Provide some backing evidence, or stop making truth claims.

I have no interest in what anyone else believes, and i have no desire to prove anything to anyone. that's your agenda, not mine. my agenda is to respond to a question ptsum asked a few posts back, and discuss a topic of interest with people who have something to contribute on the topic of what happens in the afterlife.

if a person's agenda is "I'm right you're wrong i have the truth your stupid prove it or stop talking" then find people who want to have that conversation. I have no interest in that conversation.

[southernbored]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

I have no interest in what anyone else believes, and i have no desire to prove anything to anyone. that's your agenda, not mine. my agenda is to respond to a question ptsum asked a few posts back, and discuss a topic of interest with people who have something to contribute on the topic of what happens in the afterlife.

if a person's agenda is "I'm right you're wrong i have the truth your stupid prove it or stop talking" then find people who want to have that conversation. I have no interest in that conversation.

I have made no claim of being right or wrong. I am simply saying that A)You constantly say things and the refuse to back them up, and B) Don't make a truth claim, and then say you refuse to show any evidence for it, and C) Why are you even on here if you have no interest in what other people believe? Why post on a forum designed to talk about beliefs? Just seems kind of dumb to be on a forum like that and not care what anyone else posts or believes... Is it simply to hear yourself talk? (Type)

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

if he wants to learn, he can go learn. that's up to him, not up to me.

I don't know about Nozz but I have "gone and learned" and found no substance anywhere, so it really IS up to you to enlighten me if you really care whether or not I accept your assertions or not.

I don't flatter myself to think you care personally but it seems that in a larger sense you see an ideal world as one in which most people can see the validity, importance and verity of the spiritual truths that you embrace. I don't see how you are going to attract the sort of followers to that which one would think you'd want, by not presenting a coherent substantiation of your claims. Otherwise you are just another theist embracing personal subjective feelgood which is great for you but useless for anyone but you.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

truly "thinking people" who truly have a desire to learn and understand, don't go about it with demands, hostility, contempt, insults, and ridicule. same goes for you mordant, condescension duly noted yet again in your posts.

How would you have the slightest idea what my level of sincere desire is to learn about metaphysical matters? In truth I have looked into them diligently my entire life. And after having been twice or thrice burned in a big way by just embracing things because I like the notion of them, or because authority figures or holy books say that I should, or because a belief-system is popular and/or long-lasting, or because of operant conditioning or whatever, I have come to the place where I insist on substantiation for metaphysical claims.

Have you? It would seem not. And in that sense, no, you're not a thinking person and I am. No brag, just fact. In saying that I'm not suggesting that you have a low IQ or are lazy or deficient or anything along those lines. I am suggesting that you have every bit as much capacity as the next person to use the brain you believe god gave you, and you're leaving it on the table. It is not an inability on your part, it's an unwillingness.

Similarly when Nozz speaks of "made up crap" I suppose he could be less provocative and call it something along the lines of "things that aren't true" but I doubt you'd take significantly less umbrage to it for all that kid-glove handling that you desire. And so it makes more sense in his judgment to call a spade a spade. That does not flatter you as a "thinking person" but it is a valid observation. If you said that I have four eyes rather than two, that would be untrue, a misperception, and yes, "made up crap" were you to persist in it without showing me my four eyes in a mirror or photograph or the testimony of other persons at least.

At the end of the day folks like you want to never have heard a discouraging word, and except within your own echo chamber that is not the way the world works -- or SHOULD work. To use one relevant example, in another thread recently we discussed how a theist-run counseling organization demanded that prospective participants in their self help program go unsupervised cold turkey on any prescribed psychtropic meds they were on, as a precondition of participation. When people do this kind of thing, people can and do experience harm and even death. The notion that mental health treatments should be willy-nilly interfered with by amateur counselors is also "made up crap" and that is putting it mildly. And to the extent this "made up crap" arises from religious ideation, that "made up crap" is at the feet of the theists promulgating it.

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by mordant

...I have "gone and learned" and found no substance anywhere, so it really IS up to you to enlighten me if you really care whether or not I accept your assertions or not.

see, that's just it. I don't care whether you accept or believe anything. I'm interested in this thread in discussing with others about what happens in the afterlife, and answering a question that ptsum asked about how circumstances of death affect our experience of the afterlife. By definition, if someone holds the view that "there is no afterlife therefore nothing happens," then they have nothing more to contribute to the discussion about what happens in the afterlife.

If you and others want to have a conversation about whether there is an afterlife and talk about evidence and proof, then fine go to it, have at it, have that conversation, but I have no interest in that conversation. Because it is meaningless and irrelevant to me.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Why does the TV program cease to be viewable when the TV studio is taken off-line? Why does the TV program experience technical difficulties when a part of the equipment is damaged? We do not know what form of energy consciousness is comprised of and cannot measure or capture it, so how are we to do those other things ??
All the measurable 5% type energy, yes, but what about the 95+% type???But what is the source of the initial energy that starts us on this journey of energy transformation we call life???

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

I will leave Mystic and his Cosmic Consciousness religion for Matadora to Suss. When people broadcasting a TV show that stops and the particles cease to be ordered into pictures (To put it broadly) is metaphored into either natural physics that either work and persist or don't and vanish OR "God" (which metaphor, I hardly need point out, requires a planning mind, here) then we see that the whole argument for labelling nature as "God" is a refribbed I/D.

Analogies and philosophical abstractions are clearly not your strong suit, nor do they seem to be Matadora's. Everything is God but the part that is God's consciousness manifests as the 95+% "dark" stuff, just as our consciousness is separate from (transcends) our physical body.

Originally Posted by Matadora

I'm not a tech person so I really don't know the exact mechanisms as to how this occurs but it's not related to anything that I'm talking about.

Okay, you refuse to engage the material in abstractions or analogies. The not very difficult point is that when you damage any of the things that PRODUCE consciousness, you affect the production of it. Not rocket science.

Look up the Subtraction Method and fMRI for measuring consciousness.

All that measures is blood flow within the brain as it produces consciousness, NOT consciousness itself. The hard problem of consciousness is not remotely addressed by this silliness and cannot be.

Here you are once again confusing consciousness with Dark Energy and Dark Matter.

No confusion at all. There are forms of energy/mass/momentum that we cannot measure directly and do not know what they are but they comprise the bulk 95+% of our reality. There is a form of energy/mass/momentum that we employ to direct our lives that we cannot measure directly and do not know what it is. It doesn't take a genius to connect the phenomena.

Can you be more specific here? I don't understand the question.

Apparently not. I have seen Gaylen's Herculean efforts fail to do so with explanations and narratives that exceed my poor communication skills. Sorry.