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Define "truth" and define "reality". So many people throw these words around without actually analyzing them. In the end, the "science is everything!" crowd almost always base their beliefs on a foundation that is just as much faith based as that of a religious person. The only difference is that a lot of religious people will be honest, while very rarely will you meet one of these "science" people who have ever examined their own basis for belief.
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I suspect you may be conflating religious faith with an alternate definition of faith as more or less a synonym for "trust".
Why have fidelity to one set of beliefs, while never considering another, and all the while thinking one is absolutely correct? "Faith" is a belief without "proof", and all "proof" is, ultimately, subjective. It is just that some understand it is all arbitrary while others don't...and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I only wish people would be honest about it.
Why believe in God? There is only one honest answer I can give: BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO
Why do some believe in an experiment carried out on the other side of the world by scientists they will never meet using equipment they will never see or touch and why do they accept the conclusions given on said scientific paper? Because they choose to.
I am not saying either is wrong because I am ultimately a believer in subjective reality to a point and I am a post-modernist.
"Observations" and "experiences" often convince people that religion is true. They experience God in their day to day life...and before you go on about "the need for controlled scientific experiments", I have yet to see science subjected to any other criteria outside of science to prove that science is sound.
All that is from the philosophical school of thought of positivism. Nothing wrong with that, but just saying, ultimately, what happens when we subject scientific rigor to a different school of thought?
Where is the scientific evidence for the existence of God? Where is the existential evidence for the greatness of science?
And casual observations are not usually accepted as scientific evidence anyway, but people base their lives on what they personally experience and if it works for them and they understand their justification for making that conclusion that that is a cohesive argument.
In short: I believe in GOD because I have experienced GOD, and my own life experience is what matters most to me in this life as I am only experiencing one personal existence at this moment and belief in GOD works for me and GOD does things for me on a personal level in this existence. I require no outside justification, be it from science, clergy, or other sentient beings to confirm that which I have experienced to be true on a deeply personal level. Could it all be a "hallucination"? Yes, and reality itself could also be a "hallucination" (Solipsism) and yet we accept reality for which there is no concrete proof. We accept it because we experience it and we chose to make a jump and say it is "real," or at least real enough for us.
GOD is real enough for me, and I require no other proof. I chose to believe based on the personal value I place on belief.
This whole exchange was summarized in a scene from a very underrated film:
Why believe in God? There is only one honest answer I can give: BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO
Well ... that is owning it and the honest answer I am generally looking for from theists and which I seldom get in these precincts. So good for you. You are willing to embrace your belief in god as something you've chosen, nothing more nor less. You're not making claims of that belief being substantiatable.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
In short: I believe in GOD because I have experienced GOD, and my own life experience is what matters most to me in this life as I am only experiencing one personal existence at this moment and belief in GOD works for me and GOD does things for me on a personal level in this existence. I require no outside justification, be it from science, clergy, or other sentient beings to confirm that which I have experienced to be true on a deeply personal level. Could it all be a "hallucination"? Yes, and reality itself could also be a "hallucination" (Solipsism) and yet we accept reality for which there is no concrete proof. We accept it because we experience it and we chose to make a jump and say it is "real," or at least real enough for us.
GOD is real enough for me, and I require no other proof. I chose to believe based on the personal value I place on belief.
I am still not detecting what I often do, which is sneaking in some knowledge claim which you fancy it is arrogant or foolish for me not to subscribe to. So again, kudos. You've made the short list of perhaps a half dozen believers I've met here over several years who own an honest reason to believe and do not make ridiculous truth claims, or denigrate me for not embracing those claims. Your belief is personal, subjective, and non-binding on others. That's exactly as it should be.
Well ... that is owning it and the honest answer I am generally looking for from theists and which I seldom get in these precincts. So good for you. You are willing to embrace your belief in god as something you've chosen, nothing more nor less. You're not making claims of that belief being substantiatable.
I am still not detecting what I often do, which is sneaking in some knowledge claim which you fancy it is arrogant or foolish for me not to subscribe to. So again, kudos. You've made the short list of perhaps a half dozen believers I've met here over several years who own an honest reason to believe and do not make ridiculous truth claims, or denigrate me for not embracing those claims. Your belief is personal, subjective, and non-binding on others. That's exactly as it should be.
Thank you! Usually many atheists continue arguing with "well....that's dumb!" or something.
And I might ad that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH CHOOSING NOT TO BELIEVE! It does not make someone less of a person if they choose not to believe or look at things with different criteria. There are even people out there who choose to believe Junior's Cheesecake isn't tasty. It is all a personal choice and as long as we have a neutral (i..e, secular) society and government it is fine. Secular society is obviously the best way to accommodate people with multiple view points on matters of faith and only people insecure with their beliefs (literalists, fundamentalists) would be opposed to secular government and society.
I do not believe or care about unicorns, mermaids and leprechauns BECAUSE I CHOOSE NOT TO.
I researched about the qualities and what "unicorns, mermaids and leprechaun or Ganesh" had to offer - and I saw that they have nothing to offer that meets my needs and my wants.
Using my own intelligence, logic and research, I find that unicorns, mermaids, leprechaun and Ganesh have ABSOLUTELY NO USE FOR ME - So I don't care about them, I don't care whether they exist or not. I am not worried about it.
You are thirsty and looking for water. notice, there is a NEED of water here - you have faith that there is perhaps water if you look around.
I come to you and say, "hey you need water and you are looking for it, and you have faith that there is water somewhere around - do you also have faith that there is a broken iPhone 3 case somewhere around here?"
Does the broken iPhone 3 case meet my need of water? Do I, or should I care about a broken iPhone 3's case while I am looking for water?
Same goes with the faith.
I have a NEED and a WANT of God's guidance in my life. This does not mean that EVERYONE will have that want or need of God in their lives.
Since I felt that I had this need, I started to look for God's signs. I know that God is not going to arrange a one to one meeting with me and be at my service. I knew that God will not be found in a scientific lab where a mouse runs in a spinning wheel and KABOOOM !! an experiment will make God at my service.
I used my intelligence to separate lies from the truth. I saw what talked to me when I analyze God's message offered by different belief systems - and I chose the one that I thought suited to meet my needs the best.
Now, Atheists may NOT have a need or want of God in their lives, so they either deny God's existence or they don't care about what God is all about - and I am totally OK with it!
I have absolutely no problem if someone chooses not to believe in the existence of God.
My philosophy is simple, we should use your intelligence and our logic to do our own research to make choices based on free will - and in the end, we will be responsible for our choices.
For the life of me, I am unable to see a need, or even a tendril of value of believing utter BS, impossible flights of fantasy, Factless Fiction as if it were truth. To sacrifice your intellectual honesty utterly and completely to believe a bunch of impossible poppycock in order to assuage some guilt or fear. It is the very definition of shallow and vacuous. Cowardly and worse.
Accept your mortality like a man, and you will find that you are finally at peace with truth and your inevitable fate, and can then truly be free to go forward and be all you can be, without holding anything back, or feeling that this is only a dress rehearsal. It is the real and only deal. All the rest are lies, and I see nothing positive and everything negative in holding lies as truth or fantasy as fact - except when dealing with children. '
For the life of me, I am unable to see a need, or even a tendril of value of believing utter BS, impossible flights of fantasy, Factless Fiction as if it were truth. To sacrifice your intellectual honesty utterly and completely to believe a bunch of impossible poppycock in order to assuage some guilt or fear. It is the very definition of shallow and vacuous. Cowardly and worse.
That's fine with me.
You are not any different than a person who looks at a Picasso's painting and says, "For the life of me, I am unable to understand why someone will pay a dime for this crap of a few unruly lines and disfigured sketches of half baked humans"
While on the other hand, a bidding war erupts and the painting is auctioned for $40 odd million.
By way of background, I was born Catholic, but in my 20's walked away from all forms of religion and became a non-believer. Why? I just couldn't swallow such fantastic flights of fantasy, and so many disconnects in logic and rationality without at least some substantive, verifiable evidence. I don't believe in Santa Claus, BTW, for the same reasons I don't believe in any god or creator etc., or a "life" after death, re-birth, reincarnation etc., of any type. There simply isn't, in my experience, any evidence whatsoever.
However, I am open to new information, and would ask if anyone has any direct evidence, please present it.
Two basic standards apply:
1. It has to be verifiably true
2. It has to have direct evidentiary value. IOW, it has to speak directly and substantively to the premise that there is, in fact, a god.
BTW, no dogma-as-evidence or anecdotal submissions - only real "stuff" that can be verified.
It wont matter to you. you will just deny anything that speaks to the nature of us being part of a more complex system that may be alive.
reincarnation: atoms in a similar state will behave the similarly.
"humans" atoms state can be, and sometimes are, in similar states. If it happens a generation apart then people think it's the same people. In a way it is. If Brains states repeat then there is a chance that memories can be repeated. although very little chance I think.
that's that, and it's true. now the question is can you understand it.
Verifiable by who? Liberals think it's ok to let confused young men into the girls room. So exactly who is verifying what?
It wont matter to you. you will just deny anything that speaks to the nature of us being part of a more complex system that may be alive.
reincarnation: atoms in a similar state will behave the similarly.
"humans" atoms state can be, and sometimes are, in similar states. If it happens a generation apart then people think it's the same people. In a way it is. If Brains states repeat then there is a chance that memories can be repeated. although very little chance I think.
that's that, and it's true. now the question is can you understand it.
Verifiable by who? Liberals think it's ok to let confused young men into the girls room. So exactly who is verifying what?
You are making things way too complicated. I am just looking for evidence. I've looked for 20 or 30 years, and found nothing. Only, platitudes and things like, well if god didn't create the Universe, who did?
Verifiable by the scientific method of observation.
I can't simply throw intellectual honesty out the door in order to believe something more unbelievable than Santa Claus or Unicorns.
If you have scientifically-verifiable evidence, please, please present it.
The "atoms in a similar state..." stuff above is just... well, its make-believe, IMHO.
You are not any different than a person who looks at a Picasso's painting and says, "For the life of me, I am unable to understand why someone will pay a dime for this crap of a few unruly lines and disfigured sketches of half baked humans"
While on the other hand, a bidding war erupts and the painting is auctioned for $40 odd million.
You are not any different than a person who looks at a Picasso's painting and says, "For the life of me, I am unable to understand why someone will pay a dime for this crap of a few unruly lines and disfigured sketches of half baked humans"
While on the other hand, a bidding war erupts and the painting is auctioned for $40 odd million.
I like the story of Andy Warhol former landlords. When Andy was a poor struggling artist could not pay his rent he offered them some of his artwork they declined and years later they were asked if they regretted not accepting the art now that he was famous. They said that they didn't as they liked Andy but didn't like his work and what is the point in having art you do not like.
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