Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My soul (whatever that is supposed to mean) knows nothing of the kind. And neither is that the case with anyone else I have spoken to. Thus even if your claim was true, the person who made the decision about how we would be born wasn't in any comprehensible way Ourselves at all, but someone else.
So in addition to God still being responsible for the whole thing, we have a lot of disembodies souls that are screwing things up for us.
How is that our fault? How is God or these pre -birth souls not responsible and we are? I'm not whining or complaining, but just identifying who is really responsible and who really isn't, and for what.
useful questions to ask yourself then are "why would i choose this" "what does this situation ask of me" "what is this situation asking me to become" "my soul must have had a really good reason for putting me in this circumstance, what could it possibly be?"
it IS you. it is the part of you that has your best interests at heart. it is the part of you that is wise and kind and good and smart and sees from the highest perspective what brings you joy and delight and fulfills your hearts desires, and is trying gently to point you in that direction.
i'm not talking about a 4-year old. I'm talking about a 30-year old.
can you not see the difference?
why are you keeping yourself infantilized? [="treat (someone) as a child or in a way that denies their maturity in age or experience"]
and as mature adults, yes our health is our responsibility too.
what a bizarre conversation....
you deny god exists, but at the same time blame god for the horrible things humans do.
The age is irrelevant. The disproportion and inappropriateness of the punishment of the child by the parents is the same whether it is 4, 14 or 40. That's Hellthreat of course. Free will making us responsible is a separate issue.
But there, parents still have a responsibility just as a god does, and God doesn't have the limitations that a human parent has. A hurricane smashes a town of people who worship him (unless he's Allah of course, but then there are disasters in the Muslim world too) and this is hard to explain as teaching us something, or being our fault. It is like the parents coming and smashing your house with a wrecking ball for not listening to them. It is hard to pass that off as blaming them for something that's really our own fault.
It only makes sense, Tzaph,, if we are on our own vs. nature and there ain't no god. Still like to hear your evidence for a pre -birth soul, by the way.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-19-2016 at 05:30 AM..
what is wrong with the 30-year old who lives in his parents basement and refuses to get a job and demands his parents support him for the rest of his life because he didn't ask to be born? why should he get a job? why is the adult who goes out and gets a job considered a better person, more mature, more responsible, more grown up, more capable? why is it not good for a 30-year old to be infantilized?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 06-19-2016 at 05:23 AM..
useful questions to ask yourself then are "why would i choose this" "what does this situation ask of me" "what is this situation asking me to become" "my soul must have had a really good reason for putting me in this circumstance, what could it possibly be?"
A more useful question would be: " in view of what we know about the world and universe, is there any reason to suppose that there is any lesson inherent in the situation, but just the situation itself? In other words, don't multiply logical entities unnecessarily when the simpler explanation fits all the facts.
Quote:
it IS you. it is the part of you that has your best interests at heart. it is the part of you that is wise and kind and good and smart and sees from the highest perspective what brings you joy and delight and fulfills your hearts desires, and is trying gently to point you in that direction.
It sound like you are talking about the human capacity for reasoning. But that for sure had to be grown along with the rest of us, and I see no reason to call it a soul, let alone a pre -birth entity that seems to vanish and the re -emerge in a mix of genetic programing of personality (I am sure there is one) which mean the soul is formed by our genes, not by being a pre -birth spirit waiting to occupy our bod as soon as it is old enough to be not too much of. an embarrassment
I am far from believing that there is anything reliable as common to humans or a concesus of higher aspirations in what is our best interests, what brings us joy or delight, what is good, or wise (1), or kind or smart, or could be regarded as higest perspective. And if you could run down the check list of my Hearts' desires' , I am sure you'd be back at the drawing board on that one.
This reminds me very much of the atheist blogger who went religious. It was for very poor reasons: aside for a liking for catholicism, there was a conviction that Morality was not just a human social construct, but was an entity in itself. This illusion of what morality is (not to say delusion) was the bad reason for the conversion, which was probably already there and just looking for an excuse to happen.
This presenting of the mind, instincts, learned habits and very individual preferences, cannot validly be presented as a soul, no more than what happens as we progress through life can correctly be regarded as a learning-curve, Fate, destiny, or any kind of divine plan.
(1) it has been so often claimed that religion represents the highest of good thinking and aspiration, yet we rational skeptics know painfully well how 'wisdom' is taken to be a complete rejection of what we think of as wisdom.
what is wrong with the 30-year old who lives in his parents basement and refuses to get a job and demands his parents support him for the rest of his life because he didn't ask to be born? why should he get a job? why is the adult who goes out and gets a job considered a better person, more mature, more responsible, more grown up, more capable? why is it not good for a 30-year old to be infantilized?
Because of the society we live in, which is complex and requires us to pull together. Since the ideal is to make the one life we have the best we can have, this doesn't mean slaving for the public good, but our deeds and indeed thoughts impact on everyone else. Good and and evil (or sin) is nothing other than what benefits us as a species, and that means in the future, too. The one choice we have is not to obey God or or fulfill our destiny or find out what the fates or stars have in store or us, but to decide to act for good of all, even if it may not always suit us, or to turn our back on humanity, refuse to get a job and live in the basement.
While that should answer you question, it does underline your point - that the person has brought this on themselves. While I had some sympathy with the aims and objectives of the Hippies in the 60's -70's, I realized that they has a flaw in their rationale: they could only survive if they had a large non -hippy populace to scrounge off. In that respect, I am with you, even though it doesn't account for hellthreat an a refusal to help even when needed, which God apparently doesn't - and Free will, with its flip side of 'being visible' would nullify faith. That one doesn't work, either.
it IS you. it is the part of you that has your best interests at heart. it is the part of you that is wise and kind and good and smart and sees from the highest perspective what brings you joy and delight and fulfills your hearts desires, and is trying gently to point you in that direction.
Meh ... that's the same arguments that's made for god being in charge. "Mysterious Ways", best interests ... anything to explain why bereavement, tragedy, disease, or want are "in your best interests" or even "gentle".
The best explanation for such things as that they just "are". That way there is no need for god-loathing or self-loathing, and best of all, no excusing suffering as somehow ennobling or necessary. No need to take it personally, no cognitive dissonance, no confusion.
Of course some prefer to go that route, and that's fine so long as they do it for themselves alone. But I don't recommend it based on my own experience. Heck, I would be so embittered and broken if I had to reconcile the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune with god's grace or even my own best / higher self. That way lies madness, as far as I'm concerned.
Of course there's a nonzero chance that your particular speculative ideas about how the universe works are substantially correct; I can't prove nor disprove it. Which is why I don't afford belief to it. Scout's honor, if there were some way to substantiate it I would have no choice but to embrace it even it if it's repugnant to me on its face.
what a bizarre conversation....
you deny god exists, but at the same time blame god for the horrible things humans do.
We see no valid reason to believe god is likely to exist, and so blame him for nothing. The point, as I said just above, is that if we had cause to believe in his existence as you conceive of him (interventionist) then we would reasonably have to hold him accountable by his own elevated moral standards. What we are really saying is that you aren't being logically consistent in your own beliefs, which is just one more reason we don't agree with them.
That is the logical inconsistency for most theists; god gets credit only for blessings, and escapes all responsibility for harms. You can't credibly appreciate god for one while ignoring the other. And in case you didn't get the memo: my suffering isn't all my fault some how. I have a role to play, and I've learned from it, but that only takes you so far. I'm just human; god as generally posited is omnipotent, omniscient, and all loving. If you want to advocate for such a deity, then don't complain when it's readily observable that he fails to act in accordance with what you attribute to him.
If on the other hand you have thrown one or more of those omni attributes under the bus to save your theodicy, then fine ... but why are we then having this conversation? Maybe it's the confusion between who you claim orchestrates our existence and manages it for our supposed long-term benefit and greatest good ... is it god, or is it some inter-life version of us? Or something else?
what is wrong with the 30-year old who lives in his parents basement and refuses to get a job and demands his parents support him for the rest of his life because he didn't ask to be born? why should he get a job? why is the adult who goes out and gets a job considered a better person, more mature, more responsible, more grown up, more capable? why is it not good for a 30-year old to be infantilized?
Scripture infantalizes people. Don't blame us for the concept. God is supposed to be our heavenly father whose ways are as far above and beyond us as the heavens, etc. He wants us to not think, but to just believe in him and trust him and contort our thinking to consider all outcomes to be good and under his control. If that's not infantilizing then I don't know what is. Just shut up and trust me no matter how much you hurt, is the general concept.
So this is not a parallel to a 30 year-old man-child who spends his days drinking Jolt and playing Warcraft and refuses to take responsibility for his own life. The better parallel would be to a hostage with Stockholm Syndrome who spends his days suppressing a secret longing for adulthood and at the same time being terrified to question or otherwise provoke or displease the heavenly father-figure. Or perhaps to a child who is chained to the bedpost and controlled to the nth degree, which is even worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Good point but.....we are comparing apples to oranges.
No we are not. If something/someone is in control of something and it goes wrong then the person/thing that is in control is to blame. That's why CEOs of companies resign when it all blows up. They are in charge; they carry the can.
"If something/someone is in control of something"... If we designate Apples = fleshly state. Oranges = the spiritual state.
How can the two be compared. The former is fleshly the ladder spiritual.
We are in charge of the apple state and everything associated with it. Prior to Jesus, the apple state had the penalty of the law as its enemy.
After Jesus, the penalty was taken away and applied to Jesus.
So, to answer your question, we would not exist in the flesh without the consequences of separation. (Separation meaning independent entities from God as gods ourselves. Thus, faulting God for that condition, or understanding the ramifications of creating us in that state and accepting His redemption for it is our choice.
Apples, in the flesh, are/were incapable of attaining a perfect state for the purposes of the souls continuance into eternity.
While the orange state was God Himself remedying the souls of all mankind.
Quote:
A lack of knowledge, and understating will result in a lack of wisdom.
Yes....what does that have to do with the price of oranges?>>>Rafius
Made my point.
Not understanding for the lack of knowledge results a lack in wisdom.
Jesus the Son of God paid the price in full for yours and my salvation.
The wisdom in it is accepting the gift as free and clear.
Blessings, AJ
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
, I am sure you'd be back at the drawing board on that one. 
it has been so often claimed that religion represents the highest of good thinking and aspiration, yet we rational skeptics know painfully well how 'wisdom' is taken to be a complete rejection of what we think of as wisdom.
