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Our ability to govern ourselves for the good and or for evil. No in between. That portion of free will is ours to keep.
The part of free will that is not ours is the works of God in the process of creation and salvation of that creation.
That is totally a work of God. No one but God Himself could and would perform a task so daunting as to take on all the sins of the world and apply unconditional forgiveness in the form of Grace.
Not one human being, born of ADAM could perform such a task save God Himself in a fleshly form.
Our will, free will, deals with only the things of the flesh because as gods, we are our own judge of things in the flesh and therefore, have consequences.
There is one verse that deals with what happens to some, examples are: dying in a war, live in poverty, live in riches, be a movie star, a sports star, being in the wrong place at the right time, suffering disasters, born with abnormalities etc.
That verse is this one: Ecc_9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
How fittingly the chapter and verse 9:11.
So, for some, as like some on this thread have views and beliefs that require themselves to practice certain things while others do not. Not to say one is wrong over the other but rather that diversity is the mother of all trials to distinguish the tolerances gained or not gained, hopefully, for the good and not evil. Such as hate.
The stories, of Joseph and David, God used to symbolize the similarities between them and the coming Christ.
Again, I emphasize the works of God in the verse Hosea 12:10. Similitude's.
Noah, simiiar to a type of Christ.
The ark similiar to a type of Christ
The sacrificial goat in the story of Abraham similar to a type of Christ
A type of Moses, of Joseph, of David, a lamb, a lion all similar too's etc.
A special spirit is embedded into selected few that God can work with to shape the turn of events to His cause, but not without that individuals struggling with their own conscience.
Moses had reservations so God had to include Arron.
David struggled with the taking of Uriah's wife.
Pilate struggled with carrying out of the sentence of Jesus' crucifixion.
Judas struggled with the betrayal.
Samson struggled with falling for his own strength
I mean there are many stories, personalities similar to or a picture of the coming Messiah.
Even Jesus asked the Father, If, this cup could pass struggled with obedience.
Free will in all of them? Absolutely. If it weren't that way, there would be no struggle.
Blessings, AJ
It's a really hard thing to consider especially for the Christian looking at Joseph.
Joseph's brothers rejected him, through him into a dry pit, sold him into slavery and because of the brothers actions, Joseph says,'' This was meant to happen.''
Those brothers had no choice in doing damage to Joseph because their persecution ended up saving the whole world.
Should people be punished for what they do?
Then let us punish the brethren of Joseph for what the evil they committed again their brother, but that isn't how it plays out, Joseph's brethren are appointed the head shepherds over the whole land and we know what that really means don't we?
For their evil they were awarded any land by their choosing and appointed leaders.
I do know the brothers of Joseph were punished way before they came to Joseph but the story still reflects that their actions were meant to be. There is no greater thing than to see a man like Judah redeem himself as he did to Joseph. Judah had lived in true torment and this we can no doubt see in his sacrifice to save Benjamin. The torment at having betrayed your own brother would have been hell.
That is why we should seek God as our inner spirit is prompting us and not dismiss it because we want to do our own thing.
I don't dismiss your god because I want to do my own thing. I dismiss your god because I have no belief in gods. The logic and reason with which I dismiss your god is the EXACT same logic and reason YOU use to dismiss flying horses. I do not need a god to tell me how to behave toward others.>>>Rafius
Why... suppose you have the right to not believe? Can you agree that you are your own person with intellectual ability to choose your desires apart what the supposed creator God would like for you to do?
There is no record of a flying horse but..........there is a record of Jesus.
I do know the brothers of Joseph were punished way before they came to Joseph but the story still reflects that their actions were meant to be. There is no greater thing than to see a man like Judah redeem himself as he did to Joseph. Judah had lived in true torment and this we can no doubt see in his sacrifice to save Benjamin. The torment at having betrayed your own brother would have been hell.
I agree. The "meant to be" is Gods intervening in the lives using the existing circumstances to His advantage.
I believe God does not force His will on us but rather places obstacles in the way to direct us in different directions. Sometimes, we being who we are don't quite get it, so God again works on re-directing us until we get it right.
He knows what the end results should be. And that is for the good of mankind not as some suppose....eternal punishments.
...my suffering isn't all my fault some how. I have a role to play, and I've learned from it
there is a difference between blame and responsibility.
my observation is that those who still blame others (other people, god, parents, institutions, or even themselves) are not taking responsibility for their own situation. my observation is that those who reject or resist the notion of free will, and instead want to blame god for whatever, also resist taking steps towards maturity and self-improvement
bad stuff happens to everyone, that is part of the human condition.
but healthy functioning adults take responsibility for whatever is going on our lives. NOT blame. but responsibility. please understand the difference.
trauma happens. however it is our responsibility to seek healing from professionals for trauma. if a person is still blaming others, then they are still stuck in the trauma.
Then let us punish the brethren of Joseph for what the evil they committed again their brother, but that isn't how it plays out, Joseph's brethren are appointed the head shepherds over the whole land and we know what that really means don't we?>>>Hannibal Flavius
There is this verse which comes to mind on the sufferings of the guilty: Ecc_2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.
The remorse demonstrated after Joseph had forgiving them was with tears of joy and relief that freed them from a hell that existed within their conscience.
Being a servant of God is not all pie in the sky existence, yet very rewarding.
there is a difference between blame and responsibility.
my observation is that those who still blame others (other people, god, parents, institutions, or even themselves) are not taking responsibility for their own situation. my observation is that those who reject or resist the notion of free will, and instead want to blame god for whatever, also resist taking steps towards maturity and self-improvement
bad stuff happens to everyone, that is part of the human condition.
but healthy functioning adults take responsibility for whatever is going on our lives. NOT blame. but responsibility. please understand the difference.
trauma happens. however it is our responsibility to seek healing from professionals for trauma. if a person is still blaming others, then they are still stuck in the trauma.
"If something/someone is in control of something"... If we designate Apples = fleshly state. Oranges = the spiritual state.
How can the two be compared. The former is fleshly the ladder spiritual.
We are in charge of the apple state and everything associated with it. Prior to Jesus, the apple state had the penalty of the law as its enemy.
After Jesus, the penalty was taken away and applied to Jesus.
So, to answer your question, we would not exist in the flesh without the consequences of separation. (Separation meaning independent entities from God as gods ourselves. Thus, faulting God for that condition, or understanding the ramifications of creating us in that state and accepting His redemption for it is our choice.
Apples, in the flesh, are/were incapable of attaining a perfect state for the purposes of the souls continuance into eternity.
While the orange state was God Himself remedying the souls of all mankind.
No comparison.
Blessings, AJ
You're simply speaking gobbledegook!
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Quote:
A lack of knowledge, and understating will result in a lack of wisdom.
Yes....what does that have to do with the price of oranges?>>>Rafius
Made my point.
Not understanding for the lack of knowledge results a lack in wisdom.
Jesus the Son of God paid the price in full for yours and my salvation.
The wisdom in it is accepting the gift as free and clear.
Blessings, AJ
You haven't even established the existence of your man-god.
there is a difference between blame and responsibility.
my observation is that those who still blame others (other people, god, parents, institutions, or even themselves) are not taking responsibility for their own situation. my observation is that those who reject or resist the notion of free will, and instead want to blame god for whatever, also resist taking steps towards maturity and self-improvement
bad stuff happens to everyone, that is part of the human condition.
but healthy functioning adults take responsibility for whatever is going on our lives. NOT blame. but responsibility. please understand the difference.
trauma happens. however it is our responsibility to seek healing from professionals for trauma. if a person is still blaming others, then they are still stuck in the trauma.
I think that we'd agree, but it's the old false idea that we unbelievers are hating God for not doing what we think he should. It is actually in fact just one more reason why the God-claim does not stack up for us and we do not believe it.Thus we cannot blame anyone else but ourselves and we are the only ones who are responsible.
there is a difference between blame and responsibility.
my observation is that those who still blame others (other people, god, parents, institutions, or even themselves) are not taking responsibility for their own situation. my observation is that those who reject or resist the notion of free will, and instead want to blame god for whatever, also resist taking steps towards maturity and self-improvement
bad stuff happens to everyone, that is part of the human condition.
but healthy functioning adults take responsibility for whatever is going on our lives. NOT blame. but responsibility. please understand the difference.
trauma happens. however it is our responsibility to seek healing from professionals for trauma. if a person is still blaming others, then they are still stuck in the trauma.
That's certainly the case.
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