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No I have not....so let me guess, that makes my arguments less valid than yours correct?
It is an illustration of the fact that a lot of people make claims and call them logical while not understanding anything about logic itself or how it works.
I would suggest learning something about logical reasoning before you call your arguments logically sound.
Similarly, I would suggest you learn something about boxing before you call yourself a boxer.
It is an illustration of the fact that a lot of people make claims and call them logical while not understanding anything about logic itself or how it works.
I would suggest learning something about logical reasoning before you call your arguments logically sound.
Similarly, I would suggest you learn something about boxing before you call yourself a boxer.
I was just about to say this but you replied before I could.
The key for me is believing in something with no evidence. For me that is synonymous to foolish or gullible. It's not how I would characterize a rational person . I believe it is possible for the delusional.IMHO
I think the Big problem is that the average person never seeks God in the first place. It appears often they just point to things they see in a church and base there whole belief on the negatives. I did just the oppsite. I went to the source, I went to God and asked Him to reveal Himself to me. I recall once after a failed job interview I returned home and was heading up to my room feeling a little down when midway up the stairs I heard a voice say to me. "Tom, you did everything but pray about getting a job". For reasons which I can't explain I did not think about the fact that I just heard a voice that spoke to me out of thin air, but considered what it had said. Rather then go to my room, I went to my mothers bedroom and kneeled down by her bed and said this simple prayer. "Jesus you know of all the birds that fall from the sky, and you know the very number of hairs that are on my head, and you must know that I need a job. So Jesus if you are who you say you are you will get me a job. And whatever happens now will be because of you Jesus. Amen.
As soon as I as said the A of Amen, and while I was still on my knees the phone next to me began to ring. Because of the way I said that prayer, I was a little hesitated to pick it up, but then I did. The man on the other end of the line asked if my name was Tom Campbell, I said it was. He then told me he just happened to pick up some paperwork that I had left on his desk from two weeks before, and since they were short of people he ask if I could start work for their company the next monday morning. I did, and I worked that job for a year and bought a car and was able to pay for three months of a commerical diving school. As I said on another post, if that was the only prayer that was answered by God, that would of been enought for me. Yet the more I got to know the real God, the more I experienced His power. I have had such expericences with Christ that some find such stories hard to believe. In the Bible when Jesus came into a town and the people had little faith, Christ did few miracles. Many people spend their life often trying to convince themselves that others are simply delusional, especially if they repeat such stories. I have been on this earth for 57 years now, and I can tell you I have seen the power of God in such ways, that the only way I could be delusional is if I denied what I know to be the truth. Jesus Christ has demonstrated to me that He is alive and is involved in the lives of those who both seek Him and believe in Him. Even in the Islamic countries, stories are now coming out of people who have never been allowed to hear the Gospel, yet these people are reporting that they are seeing Jesus in their dreams, and Jesus telling them that He is the God they should follow. It appears God is doing something new today, and the Bible tells us that near the end of time God would begin to pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and that your old men would see visions and your young men would dream dreams. Jesus Christ, is a God of wonder.
I think the Big problem is that the average person never seeks God in the first place. It appears often they just point to things they see in a church and base there whole belief on the negatives. I did just the oppsite. I went to the source, I went to God and asked Him to reveal Himself to me. I recall once after a failed job interview I returned home and was heading up to my room feeling a little down when midway up the stairs I heard a voice say to me. "Tom, you did everything but pray about getting a job". For reasons which I can't explain I did not think about the fact that I just heard a voice that spoke to me out of thin air, but considered what it had said. Rather then go to my room, I went to my mothers bedroom and kneeled down by her bed and said this simple prayer. "Jesus you know of all the birds that fall from the sky, and you know the very number of hairs that are on my head, and you must know that I need a job. So Jesus if you are who you say you are you will get me a job. And whatever happens now will be because of you Jesus. Amen.
As soon as I as said the A of Amen, and while I was still on my knees the phone next to me began to ring. Because of the way I said that prayer, I was a little hesitated to pick it up, but then I did. The man on the other end of the line asked if my name was Tom Campbell, I said it was. He then told me he just happened to pick up some paperwork that I had left on his desk from two weeks before, and since they were short of people he ask if I could start work for their company the next monday morning. I did, and I worked that job for a year and bought a car and was able to pay for three months of a commerical diving school. As I said on another post, if that was the only prayer that was answered by God, that would of been enought for me. Yet the more I got to know the real God, the more I experienced His power. I have had such expericences with Christ that some find such stories hard to believe. In the Bible when Jesus came into a town and the people had little faith, Christ did few miracles. Many people spend their life often trying to convince themselves that others are simply delusional, especially if they repeat such stories. I have been on this earth for 57 years now, and I can tell you I have seen the power of God in such ways, that the only way I could be delusional is if I denied what I know to be the truth. Jesus Christ has demonstrated to me that He is alive and is involved in the lives of those who both seek Him and believe in Him. Even in the Islamic countries, stories are now coming out of people who have never been allowed to hear the Gospel, yet these people are reporting that they are seeing Jesus in their dreams, and Jesus telling them that He is the God they should follow. It appears God is doing something new today, and the Bible tells us that near the end of time God would begin to pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and that your old men would see visions and your young men would dream dreams. Jesus Christ, is a God of wonder.
Let me ask you something. Do you think your prayer started before or after the gentleman picked up the phone to call you? I'm inclined to believe, that since this was a relatively short prayer, that the man had picked up the paperwork prior to your actually having prayed. Therefore, it leads me to believe that the guy was going to call you anyway. Sorry. I hate to boil it down that easily, but I don't see that as an act of God, only a matter of happenstance. What you're referring to is something similar to those who claim to have a perfect biorhythm with someone.
I love it when people say "I was just about to pick up the phone to call Bessy and she called - we are on the same biorhythm." Well, what about all the other times you picked up the phone to call Bessy and she didn't call?!?! People only pick up on the 'hits' and not the 'misses.' We're pattern seekers. That's why psychics fool so many people. No one pays attention to the things they get wrong, only the vagueries they get right.
Let me ask you something. Do you think your prayer started before or after the gentleman picked up the phone to call you? I'm inclined to believe, that since this was a relatively short prayer, that the man had picked up the paperwork prior to your actually having prayed. Therefore, it leads me to believe that the guy was going to call you anyway. Sorry. I hate to boil it down that easily, but I don't see that as an act of God, only a matter of happenstance. What you're referring to is something similar to those who claim to have a perfect biorhythm with someone.
I love it when people say "I was just about to pick up the phone to call Bessy and she called - we are on the same biorhythm." Well, what about all the other times you picked up the phone to call Bessy and she didn't call?!?! People only pick up on the 'hits' and not the 'misses.' We're pattern seekers. That's why psychics fool so many people. No one pays attention to the things they get wrong, only the vagueries they get right.
Well you can play the game of chance, yet when God speaks to me all bets are off. Over the years I have seen to much of God to reduce such experiences to luck. The expericences I have had with God simply rule out Bessy, and your biorhythm theories. To suggest that this as with so many of my other experiences with God was luck is about the same as to say that my physical birth was just a figment of my imagination. I have just way to many experiences with God, which I look forward to sharing here.
Well you can play the game of chance, yet when God speaks to me all bets are off. Over the years I have seen to much of God to reduce such experiences to luck. The expericences I have had with God simply rule out Bessy, and your biorhythm theories. To suggest that this as with so many of my other experiences with God was luck is about the same as to say that my physical birth was just a figment of my imagination. I have just way to many experiences with God, which I look forward to sharing here.
And hence people will believe what they want to believe in regards to a god. Once we decide to start 'searching' for god, we allow ourselves to move beyond the realm of chance and circumstance and assign things to a supernatural entity. We can look for any little quirk, nuance, and chance event and say "I have been spoken to." Life, or should I say, life's events are very complex with numerous different factors influencing it. I have "quirky" things that happen in my life, but I'm not about to start writing them off to a deity because I can't explain them. I've never seen anything that has convinced me that ONLY a supernatural force could cause something.
Like I just put on another post, it's almost exactly like why people believe psychics or alien encounters are real. Sorry, I just don't buy it.
Let's say you're working on a car. Let's say there's a light flickering for some reason. You're about ready to pull your hair out trying to figure out why. You feel as if you've checked every wire and made every possible examination into why this light is flickering. You have come up empty. At what point would we assign this flickering light to your car being haunted? We might jokingly do it, but we know that there's a rational, physical, and natural explanation behind it. Chances are, the light is picking up a ground (if it's ground seeking) or it's picking up power (if it's power seeking). I think if we eventually broke down and took our car to a mechanic and told him "It's haunted" the reaction would be a bit of laughter. No one consigns flickering lights on their car to a ghost. At least, no one I know does.
I think the Big problem is that the average person never seeks God in the first place. It appears often they just point to things they see in a church and base there whole belief on the negatives. I did just the oppsite. I went to the source, I went to God and asked Him to reveal Himself to me. I recall once after a failed job interview I returned home and was heading up to my room feeling a little down when midway up the stairs I heard a voice say to me. "Tom, you did everything but pray about getting a job". For reasons which I can't explain I did not think about the fact that I just heard a voice that spoke to me out of thin air, but considered what it had said. Rather then go to my room, I went to my mothers bedroom and kneeled down by her bed and said this simple prayer. "Jesus you know of all the birds that fall from the sky, and you know the very number of hairs that are on my head, and you must know that I need a job. So Jesus if you are who you say you are you will get me a job. And whatever happens now will be because of you Jesus. Amen.
As soon as I as said the A of Amen, and while I was still on my knees the phone next to me began to ring. Because of the way I said that prayer, I was a little hesitated to pick it up, but then I did. The man on the other end of the line asked if my name was Tom Campbell, I said it was. He then told me he just happened to pick up some paperwork that I had left on his desk from two weeks before, and since they were short of people he ask if I could start work for their company the next monday morning. I did, and I worked that job for a year and bought a car and was able to pay for three months of a commerical diving school. As I said on another post, if that was the only prayer that was answered by God, that would of been enought for me. Yet the more I got to know the real God, the more I experienced His power. I have had such expericences with Christ that some find such stories hard to believe. In the Bible when Jesus came into a town and the people had little faith, Christ did few miracles. Many people spend their life often trying to convince themselves that others are simply delusional, especially if they repeat such stories. I have been on this earth for 57 years now, and I can tell you I have seen the power of God in such ways, that the only way I could be delusional is if I denied what I know to be the truth. Jesus Christ has demonstrated to me that He is alive and is involved in the lives of those who both seek Him and believe in Him. Even in the Islamic countries, stories are now coming out of people who have never been allowed to hear the Gospel, yet these people are reporting that they are seeing Jesus in their dreams, and Jesus telling them that He is the God they should follow. It appears God is doing something new today, and the Bible tells us that near the end of time God would begin to pour out His Spirit on all flesh, and that your old men would see visions and your young men would dream dreams. Jesus Christ, is a God of wonder.
You say the telephone call is an answer from God to a prayer request, I say it is coincidence. I have personally known many people who have asked God to heal a physical ailment in their bodies. Some get healed some don't, how do you account for that? You may say that God "works in mysterious ways" or may it explain it away with a multitude of convenient cliches, but the fact is that you don't know why God answers some prayers and not others.
I've had phone calls like that myself or similar circumstances in which "miraculous wonders" have occurred as well as my friends and family without praying to God; I called it good luck,good karma and acknowledged the blessing without calling it a miracle from God.
I spent a year in Jordan and in Iraq and worked with intelligent,college educated, local people and they were very quick to tell you that Islam was the one true and correct religion. They had just as much faith in Muhhamad as you have in Christ. Personally I doubt if Heaven is an exclusive country club and I certainly don't think there is an express line.
Hope and fear are powerful things which have been around for a very long time.
The thing is that without death there will be no need for fear and without fear there will be no need for hope. So as long as there is death there will be need for hope.
Although hope comes in many forms it often comes (is explained) in the form of a god or gods.
While having faith in a god(s) can be a positive thing, having unshakable faith (in a god) can lead to extremism.
Last edited by Tricky D; 03-02-2008 at 11:06 PM..
Reason: clarification
It's not just religion, there's all kinds of beliefs that people accept without evidence. A good example is astrology which millions of people believe in and yet there's not a shred of evidence that mysterious forces from the planets affect a person at the moment of their birth and somehow fixes that moment in such a way that it shapes their personality. I also think people believe things because it's just fun to believe in them. The belief that aliens are visiting our planet might fall into that category. Also, once a certain set of ideas really gets into someone's imagination it sometimes starts off as a curiosity or interest and in time becomes a rock solid belief despite the fact that there's nothing whatsoever in the form of evidence that supports it.
Good points. Yes, it seems like with things like astrology or dreams of winning the lottery or things like that, people can make themselves "believe" something.. but how much of that is really wishful thinking (ignoring signs that really, what is the chance of this being real?) In other words, is it true belief?
Like Campbell stated in his excellent post, there is a kind of belief that only a believer can know regarding God. It is true. It is very real. I have absolutely no, zero, doubts regarding the existence of God. In fact, I believe in God more than I believe in this computer screen in front of me... and I'm not exaggerating. There are no signs that I need to ignore. He has kept every last promise... even tho I haven't kept mine. I doubt that when it comes to astrology many people would feel this way. Very few people would bet their life on winning the next lottery jackpot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HsvMike
That quote can work both ways with believers and non-believers both the same.
Non-believers can pick apart the bible and every religion to death until they "believe" that it just can't be true. Saying that it just doesn't make sense, is illogical, or it is too far fetched to believe. Constantly reenforcing in their head that same belief until it is concrete that there is no other alternative.
Just as believers can read the bible and "believe" what they are reading is all true. Taking a open mind and not taking every word as face value but trying to find the message in the words. Again, constantly reenforcing in their head that same belief that it is true.
So yes people can train their minds to believe anything they want to, on both sides of the fence.
Great post!
I did some thinking on this topic over the weekend, and I agree with your points. God has given us the power of choice.. and so, in a sense, we are able to "believe what we want to believe".. and like you say, that includes those who don't believe in God.
You say the telephone call is an answer from God to a prayer request, I say it is coincidence. I have personally known many people who have asked God to heal a physical ailment in their bodies. Some get healed some don't, how do you account for that? You may say that God "works in mysterious ways" or may it explain it away with a multitude of convenient cliches, but the fact is that you don't know why God answers some prayers and not others.
I've had phone calls like that myself or similar circumstances in which "miraculous wonders" have occurred as well as my friends and family without praying to God; I called it good luck,good karma and acknowledged the blessing without calling it a miracle from God.
I spent a year in Jordan and in Iraq and worked with intelligent,college educated, local people and they were very quick to tell you that Islam was the one true and correct religion. They had just as much faith in Muhhamad as you have in Christ. Personally I doubt if Heaven is an exclusive country club and I certainly don't think there is an express line.
If the telephone call was but a coincidence, how do you explain the voice that reminded me I did not pray about getting a job? And I heard that voice just two minutes before I prayed. What kind of coincidence was that?
Often God will heal people to secure His desires and not ours. When my father was just a boy he had a sickness called weeping exzema. He had no hair, and his head had to be wrapped in bandages because puss would continually run down the sides of his face and head. This was back in the early 1920s and my grandmother had gone to a number of doctors for help, yet the doctors of that time told her they simply had no cure for it. In desperation she finally went down to the end of the block and asked if the minister of the small local church would pray for my fathers healing. The minister questioned my grandmother and ask her if she thought Jesus could heal her son as he had healed others 2,000 years ago? My grandmother told him she did. He then told her, "then good, lets go pray for your son." Now the minister did not know but my grandfather was more of an atheist, and he really did not care for anyone who was considered a Christian. He, like others, thought it was all nonsense. When the minister show up my grandfather was not what you would call supportive. Yet this minister did pray for my father, and then shortly left for his home. One night had passed, and the next morning my grandmother got up and started to change the bandages on my fathers head as she did every morning. However, on this morning as she took the bandages off, the puss had been reduced to nothing more than dry flakes, which fell to the bed. My grandmother was shocked, but her shock was not as great as the shock my grandfather experienced when he saw what had happened. As family members told me, my grandfather who was a non believer in God spend much of the morning at work telling all who would listen to him how God had healed his son. Here is a case where not only was my fathers sickness healed, but my grandfathers eyes were opened. God does not heal all people, and if you recall in the Bible, even Paul had some illness and was never healed.
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So as long as there is death there will be need for hope. 
