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Many people believe. as I do that everything happens for a reason.
If, in fact, everything happens for a reason, and if God is all-powerful (or, at least, powerful enough to make sure that things happen in accordance with his plans) then, presumably, everything that is happening is all part of God's plan. The only plausible conclusion from all of this is that God is, essentially, either indifferent to human suffering or a flat-out sadist.
The general attitude seems to be that, somehow, all the suffering we see in the world is somehow necessary and worth it in the long run. So let's consider this idea:
Suffering is necessary. If this true, then the obvious implication is that God was unable to create a world in which the ultimate rewards are achieved without suffering. Presumably a loving all-powerful God could create a world in which people are just plain and simply happy. Since that is not how the world is, there must be some reason why suffering is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the happy end result. So, obviously, either God is not so loving or God's power is limited by some basic natural laws that require spiritual growth to be painful. If this is true, then it follows that God did not actually create the laws of nature but, rather, he had to work within them. Personally, I'm fine with that. The term "all-powerful" is simply not to be taken literally. God's power is constrained by natural law.
One of the constraints imposed by a combination of logic and natural law is that free will implies the ability to make bad choices. Logically, God could have created a world in which all of us had free will and all of our choices were good choices. I could choose to eat a leafy green salad, or a big bowl of ice cream, and both options would lead to robust good health, so either choice would lead to happiness. But that is not the world in which we live so, presumably, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu.
For some reason God was unable to make a world in which we all had free will, and all of our choices lead to happiness. Instead he had to settle for the possibility of his creatures making bad choices. But what is a "bad" choice? It is a choice that leads to less happiness. But what is "less happiness"? One possibility is that choice A makes you ecstatically happy and choice B makes you only mildly content. Well, that's not the world in which we live so, apparently, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu either.
Another logical possibility would have been that bad choices lead to some sort of discomfort. Option A makes you really happy, and option B causes you to be annoyed at some point in the future. Like, maybe, option A would have lead to you win the lottery and B would cause you to loose, so you just wasted your dollar. Darn. Rats. That's annoying. That's the consequences of a bad choice. But that's still not the world in which we live.
For some reason God was forced by some combination of logic and natural laws to make a world in which "bad choices" can sometimes (actually, rather often, as it turns out) lead to extremely intense physical pain and emotional suffering - like, for example, not looking carefully enough while driving could lead to intense physical pain, the death of your whole family, along with chronic pain and depression for the rest of your life. This is getting closer, but it is still not quite the world in which we live.
Since God is a just and loving God, he probably wanted to create a world in which the aforementioned sorts of intense pain and suffering were limited to people who made bad choices. But he couldn't seem to accomplish even that modest goal. Instead he was forced to allow one person's bad choices to create intense suffering for lots of other people. In some cases, millions or billions of people could suffer almost unimaginable horrors because some military or political leader woke up grumpy. THAT is the world in which we actually live.
Apparently this is the best that God could do. Being a just and loving God, he really wanted to do better, but his hands were tied by logic and natural laws. Either that or he just really screwed up bigtime because he got distracted and didn't notice all those better options on the menu. Or perhaps he didn't understand how to navigate the software; he didn't know about the Advanced Options button. Or perhaps he didn't know he could pay a modest monthly fee to upgrade to the Premium Service and get those better options?
So, if everything happens for a reason, then this world must be the best that a loving, compassionate God could do, given his limited powers, or limited intelligence, or limited bank account. Don't get me wrong: The world has lots of incredible beauty and love and golden opportunities and really great burgers, and I sincerely live a life of deep gratitude. But, the logic is clear: a truly loving God would have done a lot better if he could have.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 05-29-2018 at 08:23 AM..
What you say makes perfect sense, but we battle -scarred veteran apologists know that "Everything happens for a reason" is Theist -speak for "Everything happens according to God's plan."
If it was taking the aspect of the "Free Will" argument dealing with Random vs. natural causes (which turns out to be the same thing really) then that is a different argument (Problem of evil - not God answering prayers). And thus the 'random/causes meaning wasn't (I thought) intended.
However if you did want to digress in to a 'gotcha' moment giving an opportunity for blaming God, we could look at that, because i don't get the point .
We can think of it this way: a father plans to give his daughter a car when she turns 16. He knows by that time she will have a job, be active in church and school activities, and be able to pay for her own insurance. But he also plans to wait to give it until she asks for it, because he wants her to value such a gift. But at age 11, she begins to beg for a car. She pleads, bargains, and gets angry when on her 12th, 13th, and 14th birthdays there is still no car. She matures a bit and stops asking, but then at 16 she approaches her father in a more thoughtful way, explains her need for a car, and expresses her confidence that her dad will take care of this need. In a very short time, he joyfully hands her the keys. Did he change his mind? No, he had always planned to give it to her. Did she need to ask? Yes, that was part of his decision.
For those who would find this of interest.
Does Prayer Change God's Mind?
Quote:
We can think of it this way: a father plans to give his daughter a car when she turns 16. He knows by that time she will have a job, be active in church and school activities, and be able to pay for her own insurance. But he also plans to wait to give it until she asks for it, because he wants her to value such a gift. But at age 11, she begins to beg for a car. She pleads, bargains, and gets angry when on her 12th, 13th, and 14th birthdays there is still no car. She matures a bit and stops asking, but then at 16 she approaches her father in a more thoughtful way, explains her need for a car, and expresses her confidence that her dad will take care of this need. In a very short time, he joyfully hands her the keys. Did he change his mind? No, he had always planned to give it to her. Did she need to ask? Yes, that was part of his decision.
Alternative version:
We can think of it this way: a father gives birth to a daughter. At age 10 she is kidnapped, raped, and held captive for 2 years by a mentally deranged man. Over these two years she often prayed that her father would rescue her, but her father apparently couldn't or wouldn't do anything to help her. At age 15, just as she is beginning to overcome her PTSD and depression, she is crushed by a school bus. She prays for a medical miracle, but eventually dies amidst great pain and despair. Again, it seems, her father was unwilling or unable to prevent any of her suffering. But the father was such a good man - so incredibly smart and such a powerful member of the community that people couldn't believe that so much tragedy could befall his family. They start to think that, somehow, it was all part of the Father's master plan - a plan so awesome that ordinary people couldn't possible comprehend it. Somehow - as tragic as it all seemed from their limited perspectives - it must really all be for the best, they think. Some people in the community insist that it was all really the girl's own fault. She was really just suffering as a form of punishment for sins she committed in a former life - a life that no one seems able to recall but, somehow, it must have happened because, otherwise, such great suffering could not have justifiably befallen such an innocent child. Others believe that the girl, herself, actually planned all of her suffering in this life before she was born in order to teach herself a valuable lesson.
In any case, most members of the community are certain that it all happened for some really good reason, and they are sure that prayers really do work, even though they didn't seem to work in this situation - probably because God's choice to not answer her prayers was part of his ultimately glorious master plan all along. God had decided, long ago, that this girl would never live long enough to drive a car.
If, in fact, everything happens for a reason, and if God is all-powerful (or, at least, powerful enough to make sure that things happen in accordance with his plans) then, presumably, everything that is happening is all part of God's plan. The only plausible conclusion from all of this is that God is, essentially, either indifferent to human suffering or a flat-out sadist.
The general attitude seems to be that, somehow, all the suffering we see in the world is somehow necessary and worth it in the long run. So let's consider this idea:
Suffering is necessary. If this true, then the obvious implication is that God was unable to create a world in which the ultimate rewards are achieved without suffering. Presumably a loving all-powerful God could create a world in which people are just plain and simply happy. Since that is not how the world is, there must be some reason why suffering is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the happy end result. So, obviously, either God is not so loving or God's power is limited by some basic natural laws that require spiritual growth to be painful. If this is true, then it follows that God did not actually create the laws of nature but, rather, he had to work within them. Personally, I'm fine with that. The term "all-powerful" is simply not to be taken literally. God's power is constrained by natural law.
One of the constraints imposed by a combination of logic and natural law is that free will implies the ability to make bad choices. Logically, God could have created a world in which all of us had free will and all of our choices were good choices. I could choose to eat a leafy green salad, or a big bowl of ice cream, and both options would lead to robust good health, so either choice would lead to happiness. But that is not the world in which we live so, presumably, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu.
For some reason God was unable to make a world in which we all had free will, and all of our choices lead to happiness. Instead he had to settle for the possibility of his creatures making bad choices. But what is a "bad" choice? It is a choice that leads to less happiness. But what is "less happiness"? One possibility is that choice A makes you ecstatically happy and choice B makes you only mildly content. Well, that's not the world in which we live so, apparently, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu either.
Another logical possibility would have been that bad choices lead to some sort of discomfort. Option A makes you really happy, and option B causes you to be annoyed at some point in the future. Like, maybe, option A would have lead to you win the lottery and B would cause you to loose, so you just wasted your dollar. Darn. Rats. That's annoying. That's the consequences of a bad choice. But that's still not the world in which we live.
For some reason God was forced by some combination of logic and natural laws to make a world in which "bad choices" can sometimes (actually, rather often, as it turns out) lead to extremely intense physical pain and emotional suffering - like, for example, not looking carefully enough while driving could lead to intense physical pain, the death of your whole family, along with chronic pain and depression for the rest of your life. This is getting closer, but it is still not quite the world in which we live.
Since God is a just and loving God, he probably wanted to create a world in which the aforementioned sorts of intense pain and suffering were limited to people who made bad choices. But he couldn't seem to accomplish even that modest goal. Instead he was forced to allow one person's bad choices to create intense suffering for lots of other people. In some cases, millions or billions of people could suffer almost unimaginable horrors because some military or political leader woke up grumpy. THAT is the world in which we actually live.
Apparently this is the best that God could do. Being a just and loving God, he really wanted to do better, but his hands were tied by logic and natural laws. Either that or he just really screwed up bigtime because he got distracted and didn't notice all those better options on the menu. Or perhaps he didn't understand how to navigate the software; he didn't know about the Advanced Options button. Or perhaps he didn't know he could pay a modest monthly fee to upgrade to the Premium Service and get those better options?
So, if everything happens for a reason, then this world must be the best that a loving, compassionate God could do, given his limited powers, or limited intelligence, or limited bank account. Don't get me wrong: The world has lots of incredible beauty and love and golden opportunities and really great burgers, and I sincerely live a life of deep gratitude. But, the logic is clear: a truly loving God would have done a lot better if he could have.
Very well written.
And I'll a few disgusting things god did (if one assumes there is a god:
That animal life couldn't be created that required one animal to eat another animal while it was alive?????That human life couldn't be created that would die of natural causes without the suffering of cancer, or heart failure, or starvation, etc.?????
Gaylen's alternative version can hardly be beat, but I must add that this is not what the Bible says will happen. It doesn't say what you ask for in Faith will have to wait until you've matured enough for God to think you deserve it. The Bible says God will give it to you. What you are doing here is finding an excuse for God's not honouring His promise by suggesting that God is actually modelling His behaviour on the behaviour of flawed sinful humans.
Don't you see how lame this excuse is? And it's worse than that. The analogy makes it all come out right in the end. She couldn't have a car until she was old enough to know to grovel and ask in the right way and THEN God would honour His promise. Well, that's fair enough, but suppose she asks in so respectful a way it would make chocolate melt and still she didn't get the car. You can't tell me that doesn't happen. No matter how politely you ask and how faithfully; perfectly reasonable prayers are often not granted, never mind as promptly as promised in the Bible.
The analogy is not only lame, it is a lie. Why do you keep lying to yourselves and to others?
I like Sai Weng Shi Ma better. My daughter has the characters (塞翁失马) tattooed on her forearm.
Very often, when an event takes place that everybody thinks is good luck, the end results are disastrous. In the same way, an unlucky event can bring about happiness. Therefore, you should not lose your will to continue if an unlucky event happens, nor should you be too overjoyed or feel too self-satisfied because of a lucky event, or because something that you desire comes very easily to you.
In this outlook, one just accepts what happens and what appears to be good luck may bring misfortune and what appears to be bad luck may be a blessing in disguise.
Different from "everything happens for a reason". More like cause and effect.
If, in fact, everything happens for a reason, and if God is all-powerful (or, at least, powerful enough to make sure that things happen in accordance with his plans) then, presumably, everything that is happening is all part of God's plan. The only plausible conclusion from all of this is that God is, essentially, either indifferent to human suffering or a flat-out sadist.
The general attitude seems to be that, somehow, all the suffering we see in the world is somehow necessary and worth it in the long run. So let's consider this idea:
Suffering is necessary. If this true, then the obvious implication is that God was unable to create a world in which the ultimate rewards are achieved without suffering. Presumably a loving all-powerful God could create a world in which people are just plain and simply happy. Since that is not how the world is, there must be some reason why suffering is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the happy end result. So, obviously, either God is not so loving or God's power is limited by some basic natural laws that require spiritual growth to be painful. If this is true, then it follows that God did not actually create the laws of nature but, rather, he had to work within them. Personally, I'm fine with that. The term "all-powerful" is simply not to be taken literally. God's power is constrained by natural law.
One of the constraints imposed by a combination of logic and natural law is that free will implies the ability to make bad choices. Logically, God could have created a world in which all of us had free will and all of our choices were good choices. I could choose to eat a leafy green salad, or a big bowl of ice cream, and both options would lead to robust good health, so either choice would lead to happiness. But that is not the world in which we live so, presumably, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu.
For some reason God was unable to make a world in which we all had free will, and all of our choices lead to happiness. Instead he had to settle for the possibility of his creatures making bad choices. But what is a "bad" choice? It is a choice that leads to less happiness. But what is "less happiness"? One possibility is that choice A makes you ecstatically happy and choice B makes you only mildly content. Well, that's not the world in which we live so, apparently, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu either.
Another logical possibility would have been that bad choices lead to some sort of discomfort. Option A makes you really happy, and option B causes you to be annoyed at some point in the future. Like, maybe, option A would have lead to you win the lottery and B would cause you to loose, so you just wasted your dollar. Darn. Rats. That's annoying. That's the consequences of a bad choice. But that's still not the world in which we live.
For some reason God was forced by some combination of logic and natural laws to make a world in which "bad choices" can sometimes (actually, rather often, as it turns out) lead to extremely intense physical pain and emotional suffering - like, for example, not looking carefully enough while driving could lead to intense physical pain, the death of your whole family, along with chronic pain and depression for the rest of your life. This is getting closer, but it is still not quite the world in which we live.
Since God is a just and loving God, he probably wanted to create a world in which the aforementioned sorts of intense pain and suffering were limited to people who made bad choices. But he couldn't seem to accomplish even that modest goal. Instead he was forced to allow one person's bad choices to create intense suffering for lots of other people. In some cases, millions or billions of people could suffer almost unimaginable horrors because some military or political leader woke up grumpy. THAT is the world in which we actually live.
Apparently this is the best that God could do. Being a just and loving God, he really wanted to do better, but his hands were tied by logic and natural laws. Either that or he just really screwed up bigtime because he got distracted and didn't notice all those better options on the menu. Or perhaps he didn't understand how to navigate the software; he didn't know about the Advanced Options button. Or perhaps he didn't know he could pay a modest monthly fee to upgrade to the Premium Service and get those better options?
So, if everything happens for a reason, then this world must be the best that a loving, compassionate God could do, given his limited powers, or limited intelligence, or limited bank account. Don't get me wrong: The world has lots of incredible beauty and love and golden opportunities and really great burgers, and I sincerely live a life of deep gratitude. But, the logic is clear: a truly loving God would have done a lot better if he could have.
you sound very bitter. and blaming. and upset. nasty. cynical.
your posts get that way sometimes, very harsh and biting.
other times you state you "pray and find it effective."
so are you asking in prayer about your long list of complaints and grievances named above?
that is the logical step to take.
it's a relationship. when you are upset you talk it out together, with each other, you pour out your heart, you talk, and you listen, and you talk some more and you listen some more. that is what relationship is about. including relationship with the Divine. especially relationship with the Divine. talking with each other, not with a bunch of people on the internet who are trying to destroy your relationship because they are miserable and therefore they want you to be miserable also.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-29-2018 at 05:42 PM..
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