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you sound very bitter. and blaming. and upset. nasty. cynical.
I don't feel that way at all. Basically, I have very little to complain about, and lots and lots and lots of things to be very grateful for. What you sense in my post is not bitterness, but probably something more like...WTF? Why would people believe that "everything has a reason, because it is all part of some master plan?" People are certainly welcome to believe it, if they want, but if someone asks me if I believe in the master plan, or if they try to convince me of it, or if there is a thread for discussing the topic, I'm going to offer my point of view. And I'm going to have a good time doing it. What you sense in my writing is not bitterness, but maybe some snarkiness?
As for praying, I've explained all of that in other threads. Prayer has been good for me. Plain and simple. I don't know why it seems to work so well for me, but I can say it is not because I have great faith any particular conception of God, or worship in a church, etc., cuz I don't. A lot of people need and deserve to have their prayers answered far more than I do. So what's up with that? I don't know. My guess would be that prayers - if they actually work - don't have much to do with who deserves what.
I don't feel that way at all. Basically, I have very little to complain about, and lots and lots and lots of things to be very grateful for. What you sense in my post is not bitterness, but probably something more like...WTF? Why would people believe that "everything has a reason, because it is all part of some master plan?" People are certainly welcome to believe it, if they want, but if someone asks me if I believe in the master plan, or if they try to convince me of it, or if there is a thread for discussing the topic, I'm going to offer my point of view. And I'm going to have a good time doing it. What you sense in my writing is not bitterness, but maybe some snarkiness?
As for praying, I've explained all of that in other threads. Prayer has been good for me.Plain and simple. I don't know why it seems to work so well for me, but I can say it is not because I have great faith any particular conception of God, or worship in a church, etc., cuz I don't. A lot of people need and deserve to have their prayers answered far more than I do. So what's up with that? I don't know. My guess would be that prayers - if they actually work - don't have much to do with who deserves what.
so it sounds like you choose to be this way, and "have a good time" doing it
also "prayer has been good for you plain and simple"
but nonetheless you are "sharply critical, cutting, snide" towards the Divine.
i'm trying to think what the word is for that combination....petulant?
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-29-2018 at 07:23 PM..
If, in fact, everything happens for a reason, and if God is all-powerful (or, at least, powerful enough to make sure that things happen in accordance with his plans) then, presumably, everything that is happening is all part of God's plan. The only plausible conclusion from all of this is that God is, essentially, either indifferent to human suffering or a flat-out sadist.
The general attitude seems to be that, somehow, all the suffering we see in the world is somehow necessary and worth it in the long run. So let's consider this idea:
Suffering is necessary. If this true, then the obvious implication is that God was unable to create a world in which the ultimate rewards are achieved without suffering. Presumably a loving all-powerful God could create a world in which people are just plain and simply happy. Since that is not how the world is, there must be some reason why suffering is absolutely necessary in order to achieve the happy end result. So, obviously, either God is not so loving or God's power is limited by some basic natural laws that require spiritual growth to be painful. If this is true, then it follows that God did not actually create the laws of nature but, rather, he had to work within them. Personally, I'm fine with that. The term "all-powerful" is simply not to be taken literally. God's power is constrained by natural law.
One of the constraints imposed by a combination of logic and natural law is that free will implies the ability to make bad choices. Logically, God could have created a world in which all of us had free will and all of our choices were good choices. I could choose to eat a leafy green salad, or a big bowl of ice cream, and both options would lead to robust good health, so either choice would lead to happiness. But that is not the world in which we live so, presumably, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu.
For some reason God was unable to make a world in which we all had free will, and all of our choices lead to happiness. Instead he had to settle for the possibility of his creatures making bad choices. But what is a "bad" choice? It is a choice that leads to less happiness. But what is "less happiness"? One possibility is that choice A makes you ecstatically happy and choice B makes you only mildly content. Well, that's not the world in which we live so, apparently, God couldn't find that option on the world-creation menu either.
Another logical possibility would have been that bad choices lead to some sort of discomfort. Option A makes you really happy, and option B causes you to be annoyed at some point in the future. Like, maybe, option A would have lead to you win the lottery and B would cause you to loose, so you just wasted your dollar. Darn. Rats. That's annoying. That's the consequences of a bad choice. But that's still not the world in which we live.
For some reason God was forced by some combination of logic and natural laws to make a world in which "bad choices" can sometimes (actually, rather often, as it turns out) lead to extremely intense physical pain and emotional suffering - like, for example, not looking carefully enough while driving could lead to intense physical pain, the death of your whole family, along with chronic pain and depression for the rest of your life. This is getting closer, but it is still not quite the world in which we live.
Since God is a just and loving God, he probably wanted to create a world in which the aforementioned sorts of intense pain and suffering were limited to people who made bad choices. But he couldn't seem to accomplish even that modest goal. Instead he was forced to allow one person's bad choices to create intense suffering for lots of other people. In some cases, millions or billions of people could suffer almost unimaginable horrors because some military or political leader woke up grumpy. THAT is the world in which we actually live.
Apparently this is the best that God could do. Being a just and loving God, he really wanted to do better, but his hands were tied by logic and natural laws. Either that or he just really screwed up bigtime because he got distracted and didn't notice all those better options on the menu. Or perhaps he didn't understand how to navigate the software; he didn't know about the Advanced Options button. Or perhaps he didn't know he could pay a modest monthly fee to upgrade to the Premium Service and get those better options?
So, if everything happens for a reason, then this world must be the best that a loving, compassionate God could do, given his limited powers, or limited intelligence, or limited bank account. Don't get me wrong: The world has lots of incredible beauty and love and golden opportunities and really great burgers, and I sincerely live a life of deep gratitude. But, the logic is clear: a truly loving God would have done a lot better if he could have.
this tirade screed conveys many things and reveals much about this poster's views and behavior, however "living a life of deep gratitude" is not among them, and is nowhere to be found.
why you g̶o̶t̶t̶a̶ , no make that why you choose to be so nasty?
you have stated it is deliberate, you have stated you have a good time doing it.
it is a sincere and serious question i am asking.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-29-2018 at 07:40 PM..
What you say makes perfect sense, but we battle -scarred veteran apologists know that "Everything happens for a reason" is Theist -speak for "Everything happens according to God's plan."
If it was taking the aspect of the "Free Will" argument dealing with Random vs. natural causes (which turns out to be the same thing really) then that is a different argument (Problem of evil - not God answering prayers). And thus the 'random/causes meaning wasn't (I thought) intended.
However if you did want to digress in to a 'gotcha' moment giving an opportunity for blaming God, we could look at that, because i don't get the point .
Yes. I agree with your first paragraph.
As far as 'gotcha' and blame, its just psychobabble. "Gotcha" and blaming are two different ideas. If an event happens that could have been prevented, but there is refusal to change, then that is where the blame is placed on God. "He was responsible for causing it (his great plan) and there was nothing I could do differently or should do differently." In other words, it was out of their hands. To me, that's avoidance.
"Gotcha" is simply an alternative view to "God has a plan." Plans have weaknesses. There are people who like to expose those weaknesses. It is part of their plan to get you at your weakness which is aggression. Sometimes the consequences are limited so it is easy to recover. Other times the consequences bring massive failure or consequences that are impossible to replace, like the loss of a loved one.
Anyway the purpose of my posts is to work around the conditions to show that even if there is a God, claiming he has a plan can ultimately be traced back to avoidance or aggression in the human making the claim.
As far as 'gotcha' and blame, its just psychobabble. "Gotcha" and blaming are two different ideas. If an event happens that could have been prevented, but there is refusal to change, then that is where the blame is placed on God. "He was responsible for causing it (his great plan) and there was nothing I could do differently or should do differently." In other words, it was out of their hands. To me, that's avoidance.
"Gotcha" is simply an alternative view to "God has a plan." Plans have weaknesses. There are people who like to expose those weaknesses. It is part of their plan to get you at your weakness which is aggression. Sometimes the consequences are limited so it is easy to recover. Other times the consequences bring massive failure or consequences that are impossible to replace, like the loss of a loved one.
Anyway the purpose of my posts is to work around the conditions to show that even if there is a God, claiming he has a plan can ultimately be traced back to avoidance or aggression in the human making the claim.
'The blame is placed on God'. Let me try an analogy. And it is more than that as it has happened. A boss agrees a pension plan for his staff. They pay into it monthly and the plan pays out the rest of their life.
Then the boss absconds with the money and there is no pension.
'Not the boss' fault - they should have made alternative provision for their future'.
Of course it's the Boss's fault. He swore he'd take care of their future and they thought they'd done that. If he hadn't lied to them, then the responsibility would have been theirs.
I think I get the other point. Unsettle the person, make them doubt - then go in for the hard sell.
I don't know whether you are saying theists or atheists do that, but in fact I suppose both do. But that's not important. What's important is whose doubts and questions are valid and whose product is worth buying in the ens.
'The blame is placed on God'. Let me try an analogy. And it is more than that as it has happened. A boss agrees a pension plan for his staff. They pay into it monthly and the plan pays out the rest of their life.
Then the boss absconds with the money and there is no pension.
'Not the boss' fault - they should have made alternative provision for their future'.
Of course it's the Boss's fault. He swore he'd take care of their future and they thought they'd done that. If he hadn't lied to them, then the responsibility would have been theirs.
I think I get the other point. Unsettle the person, make them doubt - then go in for the hard sell.
I don't know whether you are saying theists or atheists do that, but in fact I suppose both do. But that's not important. What's important is whose doubts and questions are valid and whose product is worth buying in the ens.
I don't want to unsettle the person. I do want to understand their meaning of things like "God has a plan." I buy into any product where I am free to add in my own meaning so that the product can be shaped to fit my needs as well. In this case, I cannot buy into "God has a plan" because in my opinion, it is a positive spin for negative outcomes.
By the way, it is always nice exchanging ideas with you, Transponder.
However, as the pilgrim in Bunyan says "I buy the truth". I don't want to buy what suits my preference (human conventions aside) but I want that my model of reality is as close a match to What Is as possible.
As Matt Dillahunty says: "I want to believe as many true things as possible".
why you g̶o̶t̶t̶a̶ , no make that why you choose to be so nasty?
you have stated it is deliberate, you have stated you have a good time doing it.
it is a sincere and serious question i am asking.
So far as I can tell, you are the only person on C-D who sees my posts as being "nasty". Lots of people disagree with me, of course. That's just the nature of these forums. But if anyone else finds my attitude to be nasty or cruel or bitter, etc., I hope they will let me know. At the moment you are a unique anomalous data point.
What I choose to do is to try to make my comments fairly vivid and memorable. Some of the positions I take are quite a ways off the beaten track and are hard to explain, so getting my point across takes a bit of extra effort. As far as I can tell, everyone here either appreciates this, or they skip my post entirely because they are just too darn long to even consider reading.
In my previous posts, I was pointing out - in some detail - that the world can be a harsh and painful place for some people - probably a majority of people, when you consider the amount of extreme poverty, warfare, disease, abusive behavior, etc. I have been incredibly fortunate to be born in a time and place that is relatively peaceful, and I was raised in a nurturing and supportive family, and I have excellent friends, etc. But I know the types of suffering that most people endure and, knowing this, I see no rational way to say that there is a reason for every horrid detail in life because an all-powerful, loving God has a master plan. If everything is going according to plan, then the plan sucks.
What seems far more reasonable to me is that, either, there is no God or, if there is a God, then God is either indifferent to human suffering or is struggling with the rest of us to grow and learn and figure out how to carve some love and meaningfulness out of our precarious existence.
I find you one of the most patient and polite posters on the board.
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