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Well that solves everything then. Quantum foam bounces around and creates everything by accident.
The term "accident" is a misunderstanding of what is occurring and why. Everything that occurs does so for a specific set of reasons, based on current naturally existing conditions. That does not indicate an intelligence at work however. So things which occur based on natural conditions can appear to be random. An "accident" is an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause. Let's consider a tornado as an example.
The truth as it turns out, is that tornadoes have absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence at work. Tornadoes occur most frequently in certain those states for NATURAL REASONS concerning climate and geography. They occur, like everything else in the universe occurs, because of a process called quantum mechanics at work. And the natural conditions which exist.
The sun is constantly streaming out radiation, which is to say, tiny bits of quanta, some of which is charged either positively or negatively. Because positively and negatively charged particles either attract or repel each other, when these particles strike the earth they cause the the quanta that make up the [matter[/b] of the Earth to react by moving in response. This movement is what we detect as heat. The more equatorial latitudes, being more directly in line with the sun, receive more of this solar energy. Conversely, the northern and southern latitudes receive less. In case you have never noticed, it's much warmer in southern climes than it is in the northern ones.
As the sun shines on the Caribbean, the nice warm tropical Caribbean, the molecules become more active and spread out, causing the air to become lighter. In case you are unfamiliar, warm air rises. In the gulf of Mexico however, the sun also causes the waters of the Caribbean to evaporate. The water molecules fill in the spaces between the air molecules, causing the air to be dense and heavy. We call this humidity, and if you have ever been in any of the southern states in the summer, most especially Florida, then you have had direct experience with humidity.
Water heats more slowly than the land does however. So air over land masses heats faster than the air over the Gulf of Mexico. As this warmer air rises, the relatively cooler air over the Gulf is pulled into fill the vacuum. We refer to this air movement scientifically as "wind." In the far north the cool dense air is pulled towards the vacuum created by the warm rising air over the mid-section of the US. And here is where tornadoes are born.
When the warm but moisture heavy air from the south meets with the cold air from the north, things can turn violent. The moisture very quickly condenses and turns into rain. If the cold northern air is below zero at elevation, when it mixes with the heavily moisture ladened air from the south hail is produced. Not just any hail either. Big chunks of ice fall from the sky large enough to kill. When the naturally warm air from the south is suddenly relieved of it moisture, it instantly becomes lighter, and rapidly rises. The heavier cool air from the north falls into the vacuum caused by the rapidly rising warm air. When the conditions between the cold air mass and the warm air mass are disparate enough, and the abrupt loss of moisture in the warm air is rapid enough, this can cause a violently rotating column of air to form at speeds of several hundred miles per hour.
We call this a tornado. Tornados are not "accidents." They occur as a response to conditions which occur naturally. But they have nothing to do with any intelligence. Ultimately tornadoes occur because there are positively and negatively charged particles (quanta) from the sun constantly bathing the earth. Because oppositely charged particles (quanta) are attracted to each other, while particles (quanta) with like charges are repelled by each other. This is the driving principle behind quantum mechanics. It occurs because matter/energy NATURALLY interacts with itself. Positive and negative charges are responsible for the sun, the stars, and the very thoughts in your brain.
Imaginary make believe is not involved.
Now, read this and try to put these two ideas together.
What ancient peoples did not understand they made up reasons for. Gods and goddesses, elves, fairies, and the like. Whatever served to answer questions for which no obvious answer was readily at hand. This was the old "Make it up and declare it to be true" method of gathering knowledge. It really had no practical value, other than to seemingly provide answers. Answers which had absolutely nothing to do with what was actually going on. Many people today still operate this way, applying made up solutions to questions they don't otherwise understand. Which is a shame, because the actual answers are most often readily available now, so make believe is no longer necessary. We have learned, through trial and error, that the empirical method for accumulating genuine knowledge far surpasses the old "make it up and declare it to be true" method. The empirical method entails close observation, much experimentation and direct experience, resulting in detailed conclusions that allow for the same results to be reached repeatedly. It requires that the results, when discovered, be accepted at face value even to the extent of completely abandoning centuries of make believe. This sort of research has also led us rather inextricably to the conclusion that EVERYTHING THAT OCCURS DOES SO FOR NATURAL REASONS which can be understood and even utilized for our advantage.
Utilizing natural conditions generally requires leaving the ancient make believe behind, however.
But this was the origin of that :
I could be wrong - we could have been talking about Consciousness all the time. In which case i withdraw my objection.
#46
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
You are ignorant of modern physics then. If Einstein had figured out what matter is, then physicists would not still be trying, vainly, to figure it out. Why did they bother developing string theory? Which, of course, failed to answer the question. Why are they still trying?
Einstein showed the relationship between matter and energy. That does not tell us what matter is, or what energy is.
(Go4No)You have not been paying attention to the evolution of science.
Matter is made of atoms. Atoms are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons are made up of quarks.
Thus the discussion about what quarks are and 'vibration'. Not looking good for you, old mate. In fact, I think it gets worse.
#4i Fish, thus:
Sure I do. Matter is the physical stuff that makes up the universe. Information is the description of that physical stuff. This isn't hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The universe is made of a unified field that manifests as various vibratory events like photons, particles, atom, molecules, consciousness, etc. The Standard model can account for many of those manifestations but NOT the manifestations in consciousness including information. The information is an abstraction at the level of consciousness above materiality as are the other cognitive constructs that consciousness interprets from the actual data manifestations in the Standard Model.
So you peddled your "Universal Field" (or Cosmic Mind, Aka "God") right away, whatever the discussion was. Mind on autopilot or deliberate dishonesty? Gotta be one or the other.
Well, the previous pages goes back to '31
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
No one has any idea what matter is made of. Yet you confidently state that everything is made of matter.
(Trans) So what? It is proven beyond question that stuff is made of molecules and molecules are made of atoms and atoms are made of particles. This is known even if it isn't quite understood yt what the particles are made of. You are doing the familiar error of arguing that because we don't know everything, we don't know anything.
and talking about the workings of everything, wit you trying to peddle your theories. Nothing about the way the mind works. Now, I know that you claim that it all works within the same 'Unified field' and you could argue that an article on the workings of the mind sounds at least like it is the same thing.
But the point is that it only talks about what's going on within the mind. It is in no way support for your theory that Mind is in fact (at least in the subconscious, if I recall you correctly, but you may claim conscious and in fact Motor -neurons, when you think about it) is part of this universal Intelligence.
I'll accept though that you might have been over-eager to link this with your theory and see it all as the same thing, and might not have been trying to be evasive. But you have to admit that I was correct to point out that the article does you no good. And while we're at it, you might recognize that no matter your education that you keep trumpeting at me, I think smarter than you do. Because I think rationally and you think with a faith -brain. Which is why your post here rummaging around for any Woo -end science that you think can be fiddled into your theory is a waste of time.
Where to begin. Your post is so full of error and lack of comprehension of the issues around what comprises our reality (universe). Einstein's mass/energy/momentum equivalence boils down to a field as the underlying "substance." That is why the various theories (String, Loop Quantum Gravity, etc.) are trying to explain the unified field. I have spent inordinate time explaining this to people who purported to know something about it to no avail. My view proposes the source of this unified field as a Cosmic Consciousness and the only place we have ANY examples of consciousness are the product of our brain. While you see no connection that is simply your deficiency, not mine.
The reason you don't buy it is that you are too tied to materialism to lend any credence to consciousness as a fundamental characteristic of our universe. You take for granted our ability to contemplate the universe and everything in it as "given in the inner consciousness" and mundane without really asking yourself what that entails. You are misled by the use of abstractions and euphemisms without even trying to tie them phenomenologically to reality. This is a generic failing for ALL consideration of products of the mind. The use of pseudo-explanations that skirt the issue, like "illusion of the self" and other semantical or neuroscientific fictions like "functions of the brain" obscure the total failure to account for consciousness as a REAL energy form as an active and independent PHENOMENON in our universe. The inability to localize it in physical brain matter is ignored and dismissed by the use of semantic obfuscations like non-localized simultaneous "function" of the whole brain (doing double duty).
However, the processing of the brain is not the type of piecemeal processing that occurs in conventional computers. A collection of conventional signals encoding the current state of the qualia are consolidated outside the brain in a resonant neural field into a single coherent quantum state (what you are currently conscious of). That quantum state is processed at the quantum level in quantum time before our awareness manifests to even measure time. During the quantum time the quantum processes are forming our consciousness, our awareness does not exist to perceive or measure anything.
I have tried to use analogies fruitlessly to simplify the principles operating in what we otherwise do not currently have the capacity to verify with current technology. But it seems that analogies are useless in even evoking thoughtful consideration and introspection about the implications of our consciousness being comprised of a field, not physical matter. The physical capability to replay the "taped" portion (memories) by stimulating where they reside in physical brain matter only serves to reinforce materialist intuitions that it is all in the brain. But, in truth, that only proves the original production of consciousness is recorded for our delayed use later in our measured time. It says nothing about the fate of the original production of it.
Unfortunately, the materialist anti-homunculus faction in neuroscience is monolithic and intransigent and tends to promote the materialist fiction. It is what encourages the entertainment of inanities like the creation of artificial consciousness (reductionistic determinism) or intention-engines (quantum semantic obfuscations). The universal consciousness field is what establishes our universe and everything in it and about it (laws, forces, etc.) including our consciousness as Self which contributes to and reproduces it.
Mystic, you are getting very tiresome. Instead of admitting that I was quite right to point out that you were doing a switcheroo, you prefer to peddle your theories, starting out with your usual arrogant put - down.
If you have anything worthwhile in your theory, publish a paper. Then get back to us..
The term "accident" is a misunderstanding of what is occurring and why. Everything that occurs does so for a specific set of reasons, based on current naturally existing conditions. That does not indicate an intelligence at work however. So things which occur based on natural conditions can appear to be random. An "accident" is an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause. Let's consider a tornado as an example.
The truth as it turns out, is that tornadoes have absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence at work. Tornadoes occur most frequently in certain those states for NATURAL REASONS concerning climate and geography. They occur, like everything else in the universe occurs, because of a process called quantum mechanics at work. And the natural conditions which exist.
The sun is constantly streaming out radiation, which is to say, tiny bits of quanta, some of which is charged either positively or negatively. Because positively and negatively charged particles either attract or repel each other, when these particles strike the earth they cause the the quanta that make up the [matter[/b] of the Earth to react by moving in response. This movement is what we detect as heat. The more equatorial latitudes, being more directly in line with the sun, receive more of this solar energy. Conversely, the northern and southern latitudes receive less. In case you have never noticed, it's much warmer in southern climes than it is in the northern ones.
As the sun shines on the Caribbean, the nice warm tropical Caribbean, the molecules become more active and spread out, causing the air to become lighter. In case you are unfamiliar, warm air rises. In the gulf of Mexico however, the sun also causes the waters of the Caribbean to evaporate. The water molecules fill in the spaces between the air molecules, causing the air to be dense and heavy. We call this humidity, and if you have ever been in any of the southern states in the summer, most especially Florida, then you have had direct experience with humidity.
Water heats more slowly than the land does however. So air over land masses heats faster than the air over the Gulf of Mexico. As this warmer air rises, the relatively cooler air over the Gulf is pulled into fill the vacuum. We refer to this air movement scientifically as "wind." In the far north the cool dense air is pulled towards the vacuum created by the warm rising air over the mid-section of the US. And here is where tornadoes are born.
When the warm but moisture heavy air from the south meets with the cold air from the north, things can turn violent. The moisture very quickly condenses and turns into rain. If the cold northern air is below zero at elevation, when it mixes with the heavily moisture ladened air from the south hail is produced. Not just any hail either. Big chunks of ice fall from the sky large enough to kill. When the naturally warm air from the south is suddenly relieved of it moisture, it instantly becomes lighter, and rapidly rises. The heavier cool air from the north falls into the vacuum caused by the rapidly rising warm air. When the conditions between the cold air mass and the warm air mass are disparate enough, and the abrupt loss of moisture in the warm air is rapid enough, this can cause a violently rotating column of air to form at speeds of several hundred miles per hour.
We call this a tornado. Tornados are not "accidents." They occur as a response to conditions which occur naturally. But they have nothing to do with any intelligence. Ultimately tornadoes occur because there are positively and negatively charged particles (quanta) from the sun constantly bathing the earth. Because oppositely charged particles (quanta) are attracted to each other, while particles (quanta) with like charges are repelled by each other. This is the driving principle behind quantum mechanics. It occurs because matter/energy NATURALLY interacts with itself. Positive and negative charges are responsible for the sun, the stars, and the very thoughts in your brain.
Imaginary make believe is not involved.
Now, read this and try to put these two ideas together.
What ancient peoples did not understand they made up reasons for. Gods and goddesses, elves, fairies, and the like. Whatever served to answer questions for which no obvious answer was readily at hand. This was the old "Make it up and declare it to be true" method of gathering knowledge. It really had no practical value, other than to seemingly provide answers. Answers which had absolutely nothing to do with what was actually going on. Many people today still operate this way, applying made up solutions to questions they don't otherwise understand. Which is a shame, because the actual answers are most often readily available now, so make believe is no longer necessary. We have learned, through trial and error, that the empirical method for accumulating genuine knowledge far surpasses the old "make it up and declare it to be true" method. The empirical method entails close observation, much experimentation and direct experience, resulting in detailed conclusions that allow for the same results to be reached repeatedly. It requires that the results, when discovered, be accepted at face value even to the extent of completely abandoning centuries of make believe. This sort of research has also led us rather inextricably to the conclusion that EVERYTHING THAT OCCURS DOES SO FOR NATURAL REASONS which can be understood and even utilized for our advantage.
Utilizing natural conditions generally requires leaving the ancient make believe behind, however.
Yes of course you can find causal connections between events. It is possible to have a limited understanding of some aspects of complex systems. Your mistake is not knowing how limited your understanding is.
And then of course you say it's limited now but understanding is always increasing, and eventually all will understood. That is based entirely on faith. We have no reason to think complex natural systems can ultimately be understood.
Genetics is one example, the brain is another, subatomic physics is another. Science keeps on running into the same kind of problem -- as more is learned about a complex system, it becomes harder to understand, not easier.
Ok. So? So several possibilities could be true. Yes, so? If you want to pick one of them as worthy of attention, give us some reason to pay attention to it. Just saying that there are unknowns and the more we find out, the more complicated it seems to get is telling us what we already know. And we can do without any strawman accusations that science reckons it hasit all figured out. That's the last thing it claims.
Mystic, you are getting very tiresome. Instead of admitting that I was quite right to point out that you were doing a switcheroo, you prefer to peddle your theories, starting out with your usual arrogant put - down.
If you have anything worthwhile in your theory, publish a paper. Then get back to us..
That is not fair. Consciousness is a product of the material brain, therefore a Cosmic Consciousness created the universe by a unified field, and it is ALL your fault you can not see why this non sequitur is not one because you are a materialist, ect, ect.
That is not fair Consciousness as being inexplicable with a god doing it is one of the Big Three gaps for God. The idea of a creator of everything being a cosmic intelligence is where the god-concept has evolved to. Mystic has simply theorised that human minds are this cosmic consciousness. Or some of it is, since a lot of human thinking that doesn't look too cosmic simply has to be ignored, or shrugged of as a carnal mind. Which is of course arguing himself that we have a consciousness that is Not part of the Cosmic one.
Given that we ask for evidence of the theory of a conscious universe being true and we get none, but just a restatement of the hypothesis and some easy accusations of being dumb if we don't take his word for it, posit the suggestion that human minds don't necessarily have to depend on a cosmic intelligence for existing, especially as we can see the evidence of evolution of awareness in animals, and you have that brushed aside by simply declaring a logical fallacy invalid by labelling it "Silly" with (of course) no explanation why.
That is not fair Consciousness as being inexplicable with a god doing it is one of the Big Three gaps for God. The idea of a creator of everything being a cosmic intelligence is where the god-concept has evolved to. Mystic has simply theorised that human minds are this cosmic consciousness. Or some of it is, since a lot of human thinking that doesn't look too cosmic simply has to be ignored, or shrugged off as a carnal mind. Which is, of course, arguing himself that we have a consciousness that is Not part of the Cosmic one.
Given that we ask for evidence of the theory of a conscious universe being true and we get none, but just a restatement of the hypothesis and some easy accusations of being dumb if we don't take his word for it, posit the suggestion that human minds don't necessarily have to depend on a cosmic intelligence for existing, especially as we can see the evidence of evolution of awareness in animals, and you have that brushed aside by simply declaring a logical fallacy invalid by labeling it "Silly" with (of course) no explanation why.
Certainly unfair to find any problems with that.
Our composite consciousness (the integration of the individual neural activity we experience as our sense of Self) MUST have a locus outside the brain since the entire brain produces the individual neural states themselves as "firings" so there is no place for the composite state (resonant neural field) to reside. Besides, the neural "firings" are consolidated into our composite consciousness and already do not exist as physical matter eliminating the physical matter of the brain as their locus.
This may be a shocker to you, but I haven’t read all of your posts, nor do I intend to so so.
You don’t provide any supporting info in any case. The Elsevier abstract you linked to discusses consciousness in a brain. OP is talking about what the matter in the universe is made of.
The two have nothing to do with one another. This was simply another attempt on your part to derail a thread so that you could climb up on a soapbox and expound upon your faith-based, unproven, unsupported notions of what you wish reality was like.
This was simply another attempt on your part to derail a thread so that you could climb up on a soapbox and expound upon your faith-based, unproven, unsupported notions of what you wish reality was like.
I can say for both of us, I think...we don't 'wish' reality was any particular way...ok, ok maybe that we were to win the proverbial Lotto. Big maybe...cuz I don't think either of us really cares all that much,
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Consciousness as being inexplicable with a god doing it is one of the Big Three gaps for God. The idea of a creator of everything being a cosmic intelligence is where the god-concept has evolved to. Mystic has simply theorised that human minds are this cosmic consciousness. Or some of it is, since a lot of human thinking that doesn't look too cosmic simply has to be ignored, or shrugged of as a carnal mind. Which is of course arguing himself that we have a consciousness that is Not part of the Cosmic one. 