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Blood makes you related. Loyalty and love makes you family.
That was his point and not that family doesn't matter.
At the end of his life Jesus could entrust his, by then, widowed mom to the care of his beloved disciple John.
Not related by blood but united by loyalty and love. Family.
That's really my point - family in the end doesn't matter - loyalty to some other group beats it. Christianity wants to make sure that is what it does. That's what the passage is telling the Christians. The church counts for more than the family. That's what John was doing to, too. He wasn't making sure his old mum was looked after - his family were all still there. The symbolism is that the most important icon of Bible -Jesus is handed over to the faithful christian - John, just as godfaith was taken from the Jews and handed over to the Gentiles.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
Our eyes tell us that the sun moves and the earth is stationary
However, astronomy and mathematics tell us otherwise...The earth revolves around the sun
We see one thing but the evidence reveals the reality of things
That's similar to the type of faith that's discussed in the Bible.
Faith allows us to "see" things as they really are and not as they appear to be.
As in the natural world in Christianity we exercise a certain amount of faith.
Other way around you mean. Religious faith comes up with guesses and invests Faith in them.
Science shows us that the religious claims are wrong or at least dubious - so religion rejects science where it's inconvenient and relies on Faith.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
Blind faith, yes.
That's the one we're talking about. Faith based on validated evidence isn't Faith at all but a reasonable expectation - like that your car will start or your house won't fall down. Congratulations, you just debunked a basic theist apologetic - on your own.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
Jesus taught:
"You must love your neighbor as yourself"
"There is more happiness in giving than in receiving."
"Happy are the merciful for they will be shown mercy"
"Happy are the mild tempered for they will inherit the earth"
"And death and hell were cast in the Lake of Fire."-Revelation. Hell is destroyed. It can't be the "hell threat"of eternal torture.
Well - those are relevant to topic for sure, but they are really a bit dubious, especially if you put them in the context of a religion that, by the time the gospels were collated, was already used to going round the believers rattling the collecting -tin.
Your comment on Revelation I'll leave to others.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-10-2021 at 03:57 PM..
Other way around you mean. Religious faith comes up with guesses and invests Faith in them.
Science shows us that the religious claims are wrong or at least dubious - so religion rejects science where it's inconvenient and relies on Faith.
nipped for space ...
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I do like that line: changed just a tad ...
Other way around you mean. Religious comes up with guesses and invests Faith in them.
Science comes up with guesses and invests in determining reliability based on mechanisms and repeatability to lessen error and bias. so religion rejects science where it's inconvenient and relies on Faith.
Your "lack of belief" avoidance in making a claim twist was pretty darn good tho. Some of us just aint as afraid.
Yes. Science observes, makes hypotheses and tests them. If they turn out to be wrong, they guess again, and, if the hypothesis checks ok, it stands as 'Fact' - until some better hypothesis comes up for testing.
Originally posted byTRANSPONDER That's really my point - family in the end doesn't matter - loyalty to some other group beats it. Christianity wants to make sure that is what it does. That's what the passage is telling the Christians. The church counts for more than the family. That's what John was doing to, too. He wasn't making sure his old mum was looked after - his family were all still there. The symbolism is that the most important icon of Bible -Jesus is handed over to the faithful christian - John, just as godfaith was taken from the Jews and handed over to the Gentiles.
Yes I understand your point. However, the point Jesus made is different. For example, Jesus had siblings but none showed up during his execution. However, fellow believers did show up and he could entrust his "mum" to them. The point? When the physical family fails the spiritual family remains.
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Other way around you mean. Religious faith comes up with guesses and invests Faith in them.
Science shows us that the religious claims are wrong or at least dubious - so religion rejects science where it's inconvenient and relies on Faith.
Only to those who see science and religious faith as competitors. Men of faith have contributed much towards our understanding of the natural world. Obviously, no conflict for them.
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That's the one we're talking about. Faith based on validated evidence isn't Faith at all but a reasonable expectation - like that your car will start or your house won't fall down. Congratulations, you just debunked a basic theist apologetic - on your own.
Ok, we have a reasonable expectation that science correctly explains the physical world but it's reach is limited to just that. Some "theists" like myself trust science to explain the physical world but we don't entrust science with salvation. No conflict between religious faith and science for us because we recognize they answer different questions.
Only to those who see science and religious faith as competitors. Men of faith have contributed much towards our understanding of the natural world. Obviously, no conflict for them.
Yes, but their discoveries were independent of their faith. Those discoveries could have been found by atheists. And throughout history, faith has had to change to align with our understanding of the natural world.
There is no evidence with faith. It's nothing more than your subjective experience that may be right or wrong. As Sam Harris would say: “The faith of religion is belief on insufficient evidence.” AND “We rely on faith only in the context of claims for which there is no sufficient sensory or logical evidence.”
Why can others find evidence of faith but not you? To you that is subjective experience. The whole of life is a subjective experience. Your missing out on not finding Jesus Christ. If you know Christ you would understand. You do not so you seek to create whatever subjective experience says their is no God. Try to find him before death comes. Death itself is a subjective experience.
You could even say the folks suffering in hell are having a subjective experience.
Why can others find evidence of faith but not you? To you that is subjective experience. The whole of life is a subjective experience. Your missing out on not finding Jesus Christ. If you know Christ you would understand. You do not so you seek to create whatever subjective experience says their is no God. Try to find him before death comes. Death itself is a subjective experience.
You could even say the folks suffering in hell are having a subjective experience.
Ok, we have a reasonable expectation that science correctly explains the physical world but it's reach is limited to just that. Some "theists" like myself trust science to explain the physical world but we don't entrust science with salvation. No conflict between religious faith and science for us because we recognize they answer different questions.
The problem is that "some theists" -- like most christians on the christian right -- make every attempt to twist science to their own purposes.
Why can others find evidence of faith but not you? To you that is subjective experience. The whole of life is a subjective experience. Your missing out on not finding Jesus Christ. If you know Christ you would understand. You do not so you seek to create whatever subjective experience says their is no God. Try to find him before death comes. Death itself is a subjective experience.
You could even say the folks suffering in hell are having a subjective experience.
Your logic is weak, try again.
Let's try this again: take your post, substitute Buddha. Or take your post, substitute Mohammad. Or take your post, substitute _____________. Or take your post, substitute no religious figure.
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