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Except Paul also says others had visions, just like he did. Was he is lying about that, were they also mad, or were they doing things that made them have visions? And to be the devil's advocate, were they genuine visions? These are also possibilities one must think about.
He hints he got to the third heaven, and is dogmatic about how one must believe. Paul appears to have thought he was enlightened, although possibly in a different way to how Buddhists see enlightenment.
Paul says he did not go to Judea until 3 years after his vision, so he could not have approached the Jerusalem church first. And he must have known what the earlier Christians believed, otherwise how could he persecute them? So did Paul teach something similar but without the laws on diet and circumcision, or did he teach something completely different and lied about the pillars giving him permission to do something he was already doing? We do not know because we only have Paul's letters, and later, fictional stories.
His belief was a branch of Judaism with no temple worship, no circumcision, and no dietary laws, 3 advantages over Temple worship Judaism in lands far away from Jerusalem. And people at that time considered Judaism as philosophically interesting. Who knows what Paul was like when he was not writing letters? But maybe you are correct, and Paul was a failure. After all, the church at Corinth appeared to have disappeared for the next 100 years.
I find myself on your side here for more than one reason, Harry, ever since I realized there was an advanced spiritual understanding of the Torah and Talmud in the Kabbalah Zoharic texts. That explained a lot and placed Jesus and Paul in a very different light. The disconnect between carnal and spiritual interpretation in Jewish mysticism is profound, the narrative about Jesus makes much more sense knowing that.
I find myself on your side here for more than one reason, Harry, ever since I realized there was an advanced spiritual understanding of the Torah and Talmud in the Kabbalah Zoharic texts. That explained a lot and placed Jesus and Paul in a very different light. The disconnect between carnal and spiritual interpretation in Jewish mysticism is profound, the narrative about Jesus makes much more sense knowing that.
Now you are making me want to explore the Kabbalah Zoharic Texts. I'll have to add that to the list, which is long at the moment but the a few good things about having Coronavirus, I have lost weight, I have spent more time reading in bed in the past two weeks than I have in the past two years and I am catching up on the books laying around, which are probably a fraction of what you have, but at least I am making progress.
You are reading Paul through later Christian theology. Naturally they can not have 2 Adams, so they use quotes to make the text read in a false way.
Became (primary verb) - the - first - man - Adam - into - a soul - living; - the - last - Adam - into - a spirit - make alive.
Your version has added text that is not in the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam was made (primary verb) a living soul". The last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The second section (The last Adam a quickening spirit) in Greek makes no sense as a single sentence.
That still seems to work (it is written "the - first - man - Adam - into - a soul - living"; - the - last - Adam - (Paul says) into - a spirit - make alive.) I'm using your version, here. And, since you say it makes no sense as a single sentence, let's use a full stop.
it is written "the - first - man - Adam - into - a soul - living". The - last - Adam - (Paul says) into - a spirit - make alive. Two sentences. Paul is not going to be too anxious to distinguish between what is written and what's just his opinion.
I agree there aren't two Adams. There are two persons (or three if not more) driven by the (messianic) spirit of Adam; Adam himself, David and Jesus. I could be wrong. Maybe David is not Adam's spirit, but the gospel evidence (though not understood by the editors of the gospels) is that Jesus is David -as Messiah.
I would also mention that I recall Paul arguing that Jesus came to rectify by obedience the sin brought about by Adam's disobedience. I'll try to find it.
Romans 5. 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.....
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I know, it works if Jesus is Not Adam, I can't recall all the clues in Paul that the messianic spirit traced back to Adam, but I think it works as well as Paul thinking that Jesus has a 'messianic' spirit from somewhere.
This might be regarded as a clue
Rom Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
It also solves this 'Son of Man' simile that has caused so much discussion. If Jesus is the son of David because the spirit of David (as messiah) had entered into him (at the baptism) then Son of Man (Adam) means that the spirit of Adam (as messiah) had entered into him. Thus the conclusion is that the two messianic spirits are the same and (logically) David's messianic spirit was also Adam. And he would indeed (as John says) predate Abraham, though I know that John was thinking of Jesus being God incarnate, rather than Adam.
What I am sure is that Paul did not think that Jesus was God incarnate but a god -sent spirit that made him Messiah.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 02-24-2021 at 03:39 AM..
That still seems to work (it is written "the - first - man - Adam - into - a soul - living"; - the - last - Adam - (Paul says) into - a spirit - make alive.) I'm using your version, here. And, since you say it makes no sense as a single sentence, let's use a full stop.
You have missed the word 'Became', which is the primary verb here. It is omitted in the second phrase because it is in the first. Try your version without the quotes and added text.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam a quickening spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
it is written "the - first - man - Adam - into - a soul - living". The - last - Adam - (Paul says) into - a spirit - make alive. Two sentences. Paul is not going to be too anxious to distinguish between what is written and what's just his opinion.
The last Adam into a life-giving spirit? On it's own, that makes no sense. Where is the verb?
'Make alive' here is one word that is the partner of 'living' in the first phrase, just as 'spirit' is the partner with 'soul'. The word is translated in most versions as life-giving. The second phrase is not an explanation, it is part of the quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I agree there aren't two Adams. There are two persons (or three if not more) driven by the (messianic) spirit of Adam; Adam himself, David and Jesus. I could be wrong. Maybe David is not Adam's spirit, but the gospel evidence (though not understood by the editors of the gospels) is that Jesus is David -as Messiah.
In Christian theology there is just one Adam. In some Jewish theologies there were two, including Paul's. This whole passage is about heaven / earth pairs, as is the Epistle to the Hebrews.
Now you are making me want to explore the Kabbalah Zoharic Texts. I'll have to add that to the list, which is long at the moment but the a few good things about having Coronavirus, I have lost weight, I have spent more time reading in bed in the past two weeks than I have in the past two years and I am catching up on the books laying around, which are probably a fraction of what you have, but at least I am making progress.
I hope I am reading too much into your reference to the Coronavirus, KingCat. I hope you do not have it and are just referring to sheltering from the pandemic. You are in my prayers just in case.
I find myself on your side here for more than one reason, Harry, ever since I realized there was an advanced spiritual understanding of the Torah and Talmud in the Kabbalah Zoharic texts. That explained a lot and placed Jesus and Paul in a very different light. The disconnect between carnal and spiritual interpretation in Jewish mysticism is profound, the narrative about Jesus makes much more sense knowing that.
I agree. It really is about "fandom". Its like looking at a bad call from a ref.
I hope I am reading too much into your reference to the Coronavirus, KingCat. I hope you do not have it and are just referring to sheltering from the pandemic. You are in my prayers just in case.
No Sorry I have it, or rather, had it and am taking a while to get over it. Which I was told may happen.
I started getting sick at the end of January. I have been home with pneumonia, yesterday was my first day out with the exception of taking people to and from the hospital and picking up prescriptions. Both my wife and son were hospitalized, but are home now. I am just beginning to be able to function without getting winded, I am told this could take a few more weeks to clear up
I appreciate your thoughts and well wishes I mention that I am spending more time home resting, reading, watching Tv because I cannot be out working at this point.
No Sorry I have it, or rather, had it and am taking a while to get over it. Which I was told may happen.
I started getting sick at the end of January. I have been home with pneumonia, yesterday was my first day out with the exception of taking people to and from the hospital and picking up prescriptions. Both my wife and son were hospitalized, but are home now. I am just beginning to be able to function without getting winded, I am told this could take a few more weeks to clear up
I appreciate your thoughts and well wishes I mention that I am spending more time home resting, reading, watching Tv because I cannot be out working at this point.
Well, so sorry that I was right. I will keep you all in my thoughts and well wishes (aka, my prayers ) and hope for a speedy recovery for you all.
No Sorry I have it, or rather, had it and am taking a while to get over it. Which I was told may happen.
I started getting sick at the end of January. I have been home with pneumonia, yesterday was my first day out with the exception of taking people to and from the hospital and picking up prescriptions. Both my wife and son were hospitalized, but are home now. I am just beginning to be able to function without getting winded, I am told this could take a few more weeks to clear up
I appreciate your thoughts and well wishes I mention that I am spending more time home resting, reading, watching Tv because I cannot be out working at this point.
I hope you get well soon.
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) and hope for a speedy recovery for you all.
