Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
65 here too, and 100% of the available evidence points to oblivion. Which I am fine with. In fact, I embrace it.
My quality of life is far better than it ever was as a Christian, in quality terms -- peace of mind, self awareness, empathy, character, quality of relationships, are all better.
Well, I beat both you and LearnMe at 71.
I’m curious about your “evidence” of oblivion -what is that evidence - and how do you respond to the accounts of NDEs who have verified out of body experiences?
Just curious …thanks
I’m curious about your “evidence” of oblivion -what is that evidence - and how do you respond to the accounts of NDEs who have verified out of body experiences?
Just curious …thanks
I suppose the best way to answer is to ask how you respond to accounts of people seeing ghosts, angels or demons, dead relatives, UFOs, miracles of all sorts, revelations "from above," spirits, etc. etc...
Do we assume all are true? Real? Which yes and which no, and how do we decide?
Just curious and thanks to you too as well!
May your year 71 be a real good one either way! Hopefully, I'm right behind you...
I suppose the best way to answer is to ask how you respond to accounts of people seeing ghosts, angels or demons, dead relatives, UFOs, miracles of all sorts, revelations "from above," spirits, etc. etc...
Do we assume all are true? Real? Which yes and which no, and how do we decide?
Just curious and thanks to you too as well!
May your year 71 be a real good one either way! Hopefully, I'm right behind you...
Well, that’s why I bolded the verified part. I’ve never seen any actual verified evidence of ghosts, et al.
But would respond with much interest if there was some actual proof. I was actually questioning Mordant on his post about his evidence of oblivion.
There are OBEs that are definitely verified by doctors, surgeons, EMTs, staff, relatives etc. NDEers that can describe the whole surgical procedure, the equipment, the conversations, the nurse having hiccups, the staff in the next room ordering Chinese food, etc etc.
UVA hospital has a whole department now devoted to studying NDEs. The founder, Dr. Greyson, decades ago was eating lunch in the hospital cafeteria when he was alarm-called to his patient who was flatlining, and in rushing he spilled spaghetti sauce on his shirt which he then covered up with his coat.
The patient was brought back to life but days later revealed an amazing story of being out of her body and one detail she mentioned was seeing and describing perfectly Dr. Greyson jumping up and spilling red sauce on his shirt.
This so blew him away, he began investigating if this could be possible and found many other doctors had similar stories and thus the DOPS department was funded.
Last edited by mountainrose; 12-20-2022 at 02:53 PM..
I’m curious about your “evidence” of oblivion -what is that evidence - and how do you respond to the accounts of NDEs who have verified out of body experiences?
Just curious …thanks
There are no death experiences, only NEAR death experiences. They use the adjective "near" for a reason. No one has actually died, and come back to life. NDEs fit with the surge of brain activity seen at end of life, in those rare cases when a person is connected up to things like an EKG at the point of death. It is likely an evolutionary survival adaptation, a hyper-awareness at the point of death that might occasionally save someone's bacon.
Both NDEs and OBEs are personal subjective experiences of living persons which I do not put in the category of "evidence" for or against anything, particularly about some alleged afterlife. They are entirely explicable without resorting to gods, devils, or supernatural realms. Those entities only make the explanation more, rather than less, complex.
For humans to be separated from the physical body, yet remain recognizably themselves, requires magic, basically. Everything we know from the physical world says that consciousness is a particular configuration of matter and energy within a living brain / body, rather than just some separate, eldritch energy field. There is no valid reason to expect that, despite the body disintegrating and no longer doing the things a body does, that consciousness somehow does not disintegrate and cease to do the things that a consciousness does. All known natural laws / measurements point in that direction.
Consciousness is also best understood as embodied, meaning that we are who and what we are not just because we have thoughts but because we have those thoughts in the context of a physical body and its sensations and emotional responses and vulnerabilities. It is my view that even if a general-purpose artificial intelligence achieved sentience, it would be a very different sentience from ours because it would not be embodied. In fact I would expect it to go insane pretty quickly if it were an accurate representation of human mentation minus a body. To me, this understanding of consciousness further ties the body and brain and consciousness inextricably together into what it is to be human.
Even the fact that we are story-telling creatures of time with hedonic tone strongly suggest that even reincarnated in a new / "perfect" body, we would have to become something not recognizably human to live forever. I intuit that most people, after a few hundred years at most, would just not be interested in having more experiences, if they somehow had biological immortality. The conceit that humans are made for or destined for immortality is in my view, very much mistaken. People like the idea, and seize on it, but IMO they know not what they ask for. They consider the imagined upsides but almost totally ignore the downsides.
There are no death experiences, only NEAR death experiences. They use the adjective "near" for a reason. No one has actually died, and come back to life. NDEs fit with the surge of brain activity seen at end of life, in those rare cases when a person is connected up to things like an EKG at the point of death. It is likely an evolutionary survival adaptation, a hyper-awareness at the point of death that might occasionally save someone's bacon.
Both NDEs and OBEs are personal subjective experiences of living persons which I do not put in the category of "evidence" for or against anything, particularly about some alleged afterlife. They are entirely explicable without resorting to gods, devils, or supernatural realms. Those entities only make the explanation more, rather than less, complex.
For humans to be separated from the physical body, yet remain recognizably themselves, requires magic, basically. Everything we know from the physical world says that consciousness is a particular configuration of matter and energy within a living brain / body, rather than just some separate, eldritch energy field. There is no valid reason to expect that, despite the body disintegrating and no longer doing the things a body does, that consciousness somehow does not disintegrate and cease to do the things that a consciousness does. All known natural laws / measurements point in that direction.
Consciousness is also best understood as embodied, meaning that we are who and what we are not just because we have thoughts but because we have those thoughts in the context of a physical body and its sensations and emotional responses and vulnerabilities. It is my view that even if a general-purpose artificial intelligence achieved sentience, it would be a very different sentience from ours because it would not be embodied. In fact I would expect it to go insane pretty quickly if it were an accurate representation of human mentation minus a body. To me, this understanding of consciousness further ties the body and brain and consciousness inextricably together into what it is to be human.
Even the fact that we are story-telling creatures of time with hedonic tone strongly suggest that even reincarnated in a new / "perfect" body, we would have to become something not recognizably human to live forever. I intuit that most people, after a few hundred years at most, would just not be interested in having more experiences, if they somehow had biological immortality. The conceit that humans are made for or destined for immortality is in my view, very much mistaken. People like the idea, and seize on it, but IMO they know not what they ask for. They consider the imagined upsides but almost totally ignore the downsides.
You ar wrong, mordant, but you do not know enough to recognize it. Where in the universe do the flames of a fire GO when the combustibles are exhausted??? We can measure their energy form so we can track their existence, ultimate destination, and any transformations encountered (dissipation, absorption, etc.) We have no such measurement capability for the energy form that comprises our consciousness and IT is far more than the mere synaptic firings we CAN measure.
Unlike the flames of a fire (as far as we know) the "flames" of our consciousness THINK!! But like the flames, though, it exists at the level of quanta. That means it can only be transformed into some other form. We know of nothing outside of our bodies that can transform (dissipate, absorb, deflect, etc.) the energy that comprises our consciousness into anything ELSE!
I'm 65. Given the question plenty of consideration and thought ever since I was once a believer at a young age. I think I do know where I'm going after this life, but that's not a decision left up to me. That is what it is for you, me and everyone else regardless. No different for any of us. I don't feel any need to know or do otherwise in any case. I'm quite happy living my life and dealing with what is within my control and leaving the rest to unfold such as it will. I have no concerns or fears about any of my decisions or conclusions along these lines. It's been a very long time since I was anything close to what some people call "god fearing."
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
65 here too, and 100% of the available evidence points to oblivion. Which I am fine with. In fact, I embrace it.
My quality of life is far better than it ever was as a Christian, in quality terms -- peace of mind, self awareness, empathy, character, quality of relationships, are all better.
Well, that’s why I bolded the verified part. I’ve never seen any actual verified evidence of ghosts, et al.
But would respond with much interest if there was some actual proof. I was actually questioning Mordant on his post about his evidence of oblivion.
There are OBEs that are definitely verified by doctors, surgeons, EMTs, staff, relatives etc. NDEers that can describe the whole surgical procedure, the equipment, the conversations, the nurse having hiccups, the staff in the next room ordering Chinese food, etc etc.
UVA hospital has a whole department now devoted to studying NDEs. The founder, Dr. Greyson, decades ago was eating lunch in the hospital cafeteria when he was alarm-called to his patient who was flatlining, and in rushing he spilled spaghetti sauce on his shirt which he then covered up with his coat.
The patient was brought back to life but days later revealed an amazing story of being out of her body and one detail she mentioned was seeing and describing perfectly Dr. Greyson jumping up and spilling red sauce on his shirt.
This so blew him away, he began investigating if this could be possible and found many other doctors had similar stories and thus the DOPS department was funded.
Thanks. Curious about Dr. Greyson and what has convinced you so, I did a little research and was happy to find an article from the Guardian that I've come to respect over the years for good reporting. This one...
I read the article carefully, and most of it describes what I believe to be the case. How the brain can create these sorts of experiences as a result of a good many causes. Just as we know how mind-altering drugs can create all kinds of wild images and experiences, so too near death traumas can do the same. Oxygen depravation, meditation, stress, drugs can all accomplish the same thing. We should all know this of course. As the article also explains, little in the way of NDEs can be validated or verified in any real way. I don't read how any were "definitely verified" as you seem to believe. It's mostly just listening to people explaining what they thought or experienced. The same has been done in clinical studies that record the experience of people taking mind altering drugs. Listening and other professionals who have also documented these personal accounts. In the case of Dr. Grayson, apparently also for purposes of publishing his book.
The story about his patient that somehow knew about the spilled spaghetti sauce is a good one, but as the article also explains, "He [Dr. Grayson] felt certain someone had slipped the patient the information." I think that's probably what happened, but either way we're not left with any real proof or reason to believe the patient actually had a real OBE, as in anything happening that is not explained by how the brain works and how it can sometimes work "in mysterious ways" not necessarily having to do with actually leaving the body.
There is no such proof of such a thing. Only speculation, or if there really were any such proof "beyond a reasonable doubt," we'd all know about it and science would have verified this in no uncertain terms. I can see how these stories can "work wonders" in terms of convincing you and others, but I need a little bit more than story to be convinced about such things.
Hey, but that's just me...
"and found many other doctors had similar stories." Indeed. Of course. Why not?
There are no death experiences, only NEAR death experiences. They use the adjective "near" for a reason. No one has actually died, and come back to life. NDEs fit with the surge of brain activity seen at end of life, in those rare cases when a person is connected up to things like an EKG at the point of death. It is likely an evolutionary survival adaptation, a hyper-awareness at the point of death that might occasionally save someone's bacon.
Both NDEs and OBEs are personal subjective experiences of living persons which I do not put in the category of "evidence" for or against anything, particularly about some alleged afterlife. They are entirely explicable without resorting to gods, devils, or supernatural realms. Those entities only make the explanation more, rather than less, complex.
For humans to be separated from the physical body, yet remain recognizably themselves, requires magic, basically. Everything we know from the physical world says that consciousness is a particular configuration of matter and energy within a living brain / body, rather than just some separate, eldritch energy field. There is no valid reason to expect that, despite the body disintegrating and no longer doing the things a body does, that consciousness somehow does not disintegrate and cease to do the things that a consciousness does. All known natural laws / measurements point in that direction.
Consciousness is also best understood as embodied, meaning that we are who and what we are not just because we have thoughts but because we have those thoughts in the context of a physical body and its sensations and emotional responses and vulnerabilities. It is my view that even if a general-purpose artificial intelligence achieved sentience, it would be a very different sentience from ours because it would not be embodied. In fact I would expect it to go insane pretty quickly if it were an accurate representation of human mentation minus a body. To me, this understanding of consciousness further ties the body and brain and consciousness inextricably together into what it is to be human.
Even the fact that we are story-telling creatures of time with hedonic tone strongly suggest that even reincarnated in a new / "perfect" body, we would have to become something not recognizably human to live forever. I intuit that most people, after a few hundred years at most, would just not be interested in having more experiences, if they somehow had biological immortality. The conceit that humans are made for or destined for immortality is in my view, very much mistaken. People like the idea, and seize on it, but IMO they know not what they ask for. They consider the imagined upsides but almost totally ignore the downsides.
This is far more along the lines of the way I see it too, if not exactly...
Where there is room for question or debate, I find this sort of explanation far more plausible all considered than all the others that want to somehow suggest the other claims and explanations are provable or have been proven. They have not, or again we'd all know about it and there would be no questions or controversy whatsoever.
You ar wrong, mordant, but you do not know enough to recognize it. Where in the universe do the flames of a fire GO when the combustibles are exhausted??? We can measure their energy form so we can track their existence, ultimate destination, and any transformations encountered (dissipation, absorption, etc.) We have no such measurement capability for the energy form that comprises our consciousness and IT is far more than the mere synaptic firings we CAN measure.
Unlike the flames of a fire (as far as we know) the "flames" of our consciousness THINK!! But like the flames, though, it exists at the level of quanta. That means it can only be transformed into some other form. We know of nothing outside of our bodies that can transform (dissipate, absorb, deflect, etc.) the energy that comprises our consciousness into anything ELSE!
Attempting to liken the flames of a fire to what is happening in the brain is problematical in too many ways and proves absolutely nothing. What we can't measure doesn't prove anything either. At best it simply points to what we can't measure. What we can't measure doesn't lend license or credence to speculate so. Nor prove anything about what we might like to think is being measured.
That's the "firewall" between what the scientific method does for us and whatever any Tom, Dick or Henrietta might like to argue otherwise...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
