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Maybe we are clay pots. If we humble ourselves, perhaps the creator will put something in us to hold. Yet if we refuse to be clay pots, we become useless, not able to hold anything.
Clay ots do not THINK OR FEEL! Those are the attributes that impose morality on the creator no matter what is the creative purpose. Morality only exists within the consciousness of living beings, but it does exist and its creator is not exempt from its constraints. Besides that, you probably do not fully comprehend the philosophical problem pointed out by Harry.
Clay pots do not THINK OR FEEL! Those are the attributes that impose morality on the creator no matter what is the creative purpose. Morality only exists within the consciousness of living beings, but it does exist and its creator is not exempt from its constraints. Besides that, you probably do not fully comprehend the philosophical problem pointed out by Harry.
It's just a picture. We truly don't know what we are, yet we know enough to make judgments of the creator?
If the creator created the world as he/she/they wanted it, my argument is that's just what it is. That's just how creation was made. Obviously we have the knowledge to object with our words and feelings, but that is just the ability to voice and show our discomfort. As to any legal grounds to dismiss the creator's creation, we have no leg to stand on. I know I sound like a broken record to some, but this is just what it is. We would be a creation, made for the purposes of the creator, whatever they are. How can you override the will of the creator? Perhaps this is what I'm really asking everyone. We can sit and shout to the wind all we want, but if there is a purposeful creator who made everything, we have no ground to tell him how things oughta been done.
The fatal flaw in your post (and previous posts) is that you have given us no reason at all to think your hypothetical Creator created humans without the authority to question the Creator. There is an entire classification of believers who would disagree with you. They are called "deists," and they believe that the Creator created things by whatever means one might choose to believe, and then walked away and had no further interaction with the created beings.
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Heehee! This reminds me of that scene from the old Ghostbusters movie, where they attempted to reason with the main antagonist to leave their world. It basically told them 'Who are you telling me what to do?'....
Video omitted. I rarely take time to watch videos. I expect people to make their case in their own words.
I'm not sure what relevance Ghostbusters has to any discussion of Religion or Spirituality.
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Now when you speak of Yahweh, that is getting into the specifics. As you know, the world we see today, is not the world God created.
"As you know?" No, we don't know that at all. What world did Yahweh create if not this one?
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We say science denies how Yahweh created the world as referred in the Book of Genesis.
"Science" doesn't deny any religious claim. Science simply makes hypotheses about the natural world, tests those hypotheses, and forms conclusions and scientific theories based on those conclusions.
For example, we know from several scientific disciplines, that the earth is over 4 billion years old, and the universe, as far as we can see, is over 13 billion years old. Any argument otherwise is simply a denial of clear scientific conclusions. If anyone wants to do that, we will reserve the right to judge their reasoning ability accordingly.
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Fair enough. Yet if for the moment we are criticizing Yahweh, it wouldn't be fair to judge based on the world we see today. We would have to judge on how it is said He created. He didn't create the world where death and suffering existed. That came about with man's disobedience. Yet again, that is getting into specifics. If God did in truth create the world as we see it today, but we judge based on what the Bible says, then I would say we have grounds to judge.
You're criticizing Yahweh. I'm still talking about the hypothetical Creator you mentioned. However, I'll just say that there are a LOT of Christians who disagree with you. By creating carnivores, He created a world where death and suffering exist. "Man's disobedience?" There are whole denominations that disagree with that. You seem to ignore anybody that doesn't agree with you.
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Well, I believe in my God for a few many reasons. For one, the Bible that is attributed to His inspiration, is still playing a role in the world today.
I thought you were talking about hypotheticals. Now you're talking about the Bible. Without using the Bible for a source, why do you think it is attributed to His inspiration?
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How many ancient religions are just that today? Yet the impact of the Abrahamic faith is still a major player in the world today. Among governments and the people. Israel was able to come back into their land two times after being expelled. What other ancient group was able to come back after falling apart? (Even one time, much less twice!!!) The greatest ancient societies such as the kingdoms of Babylon, the Mongol Empire, Rome, all fell apart and passed away. Yet this small ancient nation is still thriving? Show me another nation like that.
The State of Israel was created by the consensus of the world's nations at the conclusion of WWII. In light of the 6,000,000 deaths in the Holocaust, it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Without the help of the world's nations, the Jews would not have been able to establish the current nation of Israel.
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It could be World War III will pop off due to what is going on in Israel right now! Why? Because of the influence of Scripture. (Of course World War III popping off, many wouldn't consider that a good influence I'm just pointing out how the world is still responding to something that is supposedly like every other religion or man-made belief. This Scripture should have died off long ago, like all the others, if it was just like all the others. Who is driving it's continued existence? Billions of people around the world subcribe to a Jewish God, yet billions are not Jewish. Another billion plus are an extension of the Jewish faith, if we include the Abrahamic faith of Islam)
We don't discuss Politics or Current Events (City-Data has forums for those topics), but I don't think Scripture has the influence you seem to think it does.
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So that is just one reason why I believe, looking at Israel's existence and influence. I may start another thread at some point that speaks to my God specifically.
I have no idea what you mean by "I believe, looking at Israel's existence and influence." The current State of Israel obviously exists. How much influence it has probably depends on where you live and what you believe.
I hope you don't start another thread. Most of them look like you are preaching your own views and ignoring anybody that has another point of view.
The fatal flaw in your post (and previous posts) is that you have given us no reason at all to think your hypothetical Creator created humans without the authority to question the Creator. There is an entire classification of believers who would disagree with you. They are called "deists," and they believe that the Creator created things by whatever means one might choose to believe, and then walked away and had no further interaction with the created beings.
"As you know?" No, we don't know that at all. What world did Yahweh create if not this one?
"Science" doesn't deny any religious claim. Science simply makes hypotheses about the natural world, tests those hypotheses, and forms conclusions and scientific theories based on those conclusions.
For example, we know from several scientific disciplines, that the earth is over 4 billion years old, and the universe, as far as we can see, is over 13 billion years old. Any argument otherwise is simply a denial of clear scientific conclusions. If anyone wants to do that, we will reserve the right to judge their reasoning ability accordingly.
You're criticizing Yahweh. I'm still talking about the hypothetical Creator you mentioned. However, I'll just say that there are a LOT of Christians who disagree with you. By creating carnivores, He created a world where death and suffering exist. "Man's disobedience?" There are whole denominations that disagree with that. You seem to ignore anybody that doesn't agree with you.
I thought you were talking about hypotheticals. Now you're talking about the Bible. Without using the Bible for a source, why do you think it is attributed to His inspiration?
The State of Israel was created by the consensus of the world's nations at the conclusion of WWII. In light of the 6,000,000 deaths in the Holocaust, it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Without the help of the world's nations, the Jews would not have been able to establish the current nation of Israel.
We don't discuss Politics or Current Events (City-Data has forums for those topics), but I don't think Scripture has the influence you seem to think it does.
I have no idea what you mean by "I believe, looking at Israel's existence and influence." The current State of Israel obviously exists. How much influence it has probably depends on where you live and what you believe.
I hope you don't start another thread. Most of them look like you are preaching your own views and ignoring anybody that has another point of view.
A Deistic god still creates, perhaps for the purposes of observing. And I've said if we were giving the freedom to criticize, we can't say they are wrong giving us the freedom. An ultimate criticism is accusing the creator of some kind of wrongdoing. That the creator is in violation of some truth or law. If the creator is deistic, what's wrong with that? What can you accuse him/she/they of, which I imagine you are making a judgment based on a moral point?
Now Harry brought up the point if a dumb god created us for a purpose (purpose of learning something new), and then rejects that purpose of the creation (ignoring what we teach it), it would be right to judge on that basis. Here the creator subjected himself to the purpose of that creation in learning, but reneges later on. Then we have a right.
Our best scientific observations would seemingly rule out Yahweh as being the creator. Yet yall keep bringing Him up for specific discussions. I just pointed out the world we see today, isn't the world He created. Ultimately if we are to judge Yahweh, judge Him on the basis of what is written in Genesis. If science rules it out, fair enough. There still could be a creator out there, which is why this topic was generic in its concept. Yet yall keep bringing Yahweh up because yall know I'm Christian. So that is why I spoke of Yahweh in the last two posts, as you know. However if Yahweh is shown to exist, and He created the world as we see it today, then we can make criticisms based on what the Bible says of Him.
It's just a picture. We truly don't know what we are, yet we know enough to make judgments of the creator?
It is the thinking and feeling that makes us like the creator (children are like their parents, but clay pots are not like the potter). It is those traits that make us capable of suffering and thereby judging good or evil.
It is the thinking and feeling that makes us like the creator (children are like their parents, but clay pots are not like the potter). It is those traits that make us capable of suffering and thereby judging good or evil.
Perhaps you can judge good and evil on a limited basis. To be able to fully judge something, you would need to know all of what is involved.
Let me paint another picture, not necessarily related to what I just typed. (Because most of our judgment/criticism brought up in this topic is morally based) If the creator created the earth, and he/she/designated sandy seashores to be off limits to all human creatures, what case could we bring to say that is wrong? And by off limits, you can't walk on them, you can't lay down on the sand. If you want to look out at the ocean, you have to do it from a distance. (Yet you could do it on a rocky seashore)
A Deistic god still creates, perhaps for the purposes of observing. And I've said if we were giving the freedom to criticize, we can't say they are wrong giving us the freedom. An ultimate criticism is accusing the creator of some kind of wrongdoing. That the creator is in violation of some truth or law. If the creator is deistic, what's wrong with that? What can you accuse him/she/they of, which I imagine you are making a judgment based on a moral point?
Now Harry brought up the point if a dumb god created us for a purpose (purpose of learning something new), and then rejects that purpose of the creation (ignoring what we teach it), it would be right to judge on that basis. Here the creator subjected himself to the purpose of that creation in learning, but reneges later on. Then we have a right.
Our best scientific observations would seemingly rule out Yahweh as being the creator. Yet yall keep bringing Him up for specific discussions. I just pointed out the world we see today, isn't the world He created. Ultimately if we are to judge Yahweh, judge Him on the basis of what is written in Genesis. If science rules it out, fair enough. There still could be a creator out there, which is why this topic was generic in its concept. Yet yall keep bringing Yahweh up because yall know I'm Christian. So that is why I spoke of Yahweh in the last two posts, as you know. However if Yahweh is shown to exist, and He created the world as we see it today, then we can make criticisms based on what the Bible says of Him.
You wrote all that and still failed to say why we can't criticize the Creator. Keep in mind that YOU brought up Yahweh. I simply responded to what you wrote.
I don't see why scientific observation would rule out Yahweh. All science has shown is that the OT can't be taken literally if you want it to make any sense.
Any further posts I make will be directed toward the lurkers who do not post. There seems to be no point in asking you for clarification or to explain yourself, so I won't be addressing you directly any more.
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I'm just pointing out how the world is still responding to something that is supposedly like every other religion or man-made belief. This Scripture should have died off long ago, like all the others, if it was just like all the others. Who is driving it's continued existence? Billions of people around the world subcribe to a Jewish God, yet billions are not Jewish. Another billion plus are an extension of the Jewish faith, if we include the Abrahamic faith of Islam)
