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You'll never catch me saying God doesn't care!!!!
You can bet on it.
I care, for example, very much if my doggy loves me....there is no threat of
punishment if she doesn't.
I don't agree with your thinking, Arequipa.
Actually you do. Go back, read your post and mine together and have a think about it.
Here's a clue. Hellthreat would argue that God does care what we think.
Lack of hellthreat would leave it open, god might care what we think or not, but either way, like your doggy, it wouldn't result in our punishment whether we believed in (or loved) god or not.
how can you determine if God is real or not if you don't actually pursue him? don't expect God to be like "oh im sorry you don't believe here let me do a miracle" God desires relationship and relationship is two way.
you've heard about him rumors, stories you don't know if he's real or not so ask him find out if he is pursue him. God only reveals himself to those who actually want to know him. you sit stubbornly and wait for a sign, but Gods like doofus! who freaken created the universe is that not sign enough for you to want to try and get to know me.
Why should God prove himself to a people who don't care if he exists any way?
you seek after these signs and proofs of a God but not God himself. you want your evidence, stop looking for it. your not going to see anything unless you seek after the source, which is God. God is the trunk of the tree we are the branches, you wont see any fruit (EVIDENCE) unless you stay connected to the trunk. it's like sex. sex is the fruit of Love. sex was never supposed to be the point but we constantly make it the point. most of us are driven by sex, sex is the focal point, sex is my addiction, sex is the reason I'm in this relationship. but it's so F*** up and backwards. it's not love. saying "I need evidence! I need proof of God first and than Ill commit" is like saying to a girl/guy "give me sex and than I'll love you". so why shouldn't God reveal himself to you? because just like any smart girl, he wouldn't uncover himself and put himself in a place of vulnerability before someone who doesn't really care about him. somebody who only Lusts. God desires Love and true relationship with you, not just sex. seek God, connect with him and you will find your proof.
Look at it this way. Why don't you pursue the Loch Ness Monster?
It's like this. If it is claimed that God does not care whether we believe in him or not, then one cannot logically believe in hell -threat or even 'separation', because the existence of a punishment for NOT believing says that he does care.
If there is no hellthreat or punishment, then God indeed doesn't care whether we believe in him or not, and we don't need to care either.
I had to re read this a lot...what others "claim"...what it is 'you yourself' are saying.
If there is no punishment...then God doesn't care?
I'm saying I care about the dog's love
...but there isn't any punishment to the dog....if I didn't care if
the dog loved me...there still would be no punishment.
Punishment is irrevelant to me, either way.
Belief in punishment even or hell is nothing that is relevant to me.
The OP. When they say that god does not need to prove himself, they need to apply this logic to every claim. The problem with this is that they only make this argument when it pertains to believing in god. They would probably not use that logic when it comes to things like leprechauns. They would probably demand evidence for their existence before they believe leprechauns exist.
Actually you do. Go back, read your post and mine together and have a think about it.
Here's a clue. Hellthreat would argue that God does care what we think.
Lack of hellthreat would leave it open, god might care what we think or not, but either way, like your doggy, it wouldn't result in our punishment whether we believed in (or loved) god or not.
Makes sense. Compare it to a parent and a child. When would you punish your child? When they do something you care about.
If your child curses at someone after being told this is not acceptable would you punish them in some way? Probably. Because you care if they do it or not.
Does god punish you for not believing in him? Sounds like he does. Hard to make an argument god would punish you for something he doesn't care about.
I had to re read this a lot...what others "claim"...what it is 'you yourself' are saying.
If there is no punishment...then God doesn't care?
I'm saying I care about the dog's love
...but there isn't any punishment to the dog....if I didn't care if
the dog loved me...there still would be no punishment.
Punishment is irrevelant to me, either way.
Belief in punishment even or hell is nothing that is relevant to me.
I hope I'm following you better.
Like the doggie owner, God (or whatever there is) is not interested in punishing us whether or not it cares about whether we believe in as worship it (doggie -style) or not.
The post I made was in response to one that suggested that God was indifferent to us. If so that rather puts ET doctrine and indeed the claims of Christianity out of course and we are talking about a more Deist -god, which is an idea that you and I are not going to fight about.
Makes sense. Compare it to a parent and a child. When would you punish your child? When they do something you care about.
If your child curses at someone after being told this is not acceptable would you punish them in some way? Probably. Because you care if they do it or not.
Does god punish you for not believing in him? Sounds like he does. Hard to make an argument god would punish you for something he doesn't care about.
That works too. Christianity or a personal god could work but then it wouldn't be a god who was indifferent to us.
The argument you were pointing to is the idea that punishment is necessary as part of the learning - curve to get us ready for the afterlife or last days or whatever. In that case, the grounding of a misbehaving child or putting on the Naughty Step makes perfect sense.
What does not is the ET idea of Hellthreat. You do not train your kids to behave by locking them in the cellar and torturing them until they are dead. The 'Learning curve' argument does not sell hellthreat or ET.
That works too. Christianity or a personal god could work but then it wouldn't be a god who was indifferent to us.
The argument you were pointing to is the idea that punishment is necessary as part of the learning - curve to get us ready for the afterlife or last days or whatever. In that case, the grounding of a misbehaving child or putting on the Naughty Step makes perfect sense.
What does not is the ET idea of Hellthreat. You do not train your kids to behave by locking them in the cellar and torturing them until they are dead. The 'Learning curve' argument does not sell hellthreat or ET.
I don't think that is really what I meant. More just the fact that you don't punish someone for something you don't care about.
I don't think that is really what I meant. More just the fact that you don't punish someone for something you don't care about.
Yes - I suppose that what we are all dancing about is deist god or hands -on personal god.
The god who doesn't care whether we believe in (or love) him or not is rather deist and is not the god of the Bible, so we can forget about Bible, Church -going, hellthreat or the need to believe in it.
The god who in not going to punish us whether we love it or not (like the doggie) at least rules out hellthreat and so it doesn't matter whether be believe or attend church or not.
The god that does care and even allows us to burn our fingers to teach us to stay away from hot stoves is not going to torture us to death for not believing in or loving him or even not believing in or loving hims in the right language or building. Thus the idea of hellthreat is incompatible with a god that is just or loving.
What this seems to mean is that the claims of various religions seem to be man- made speculations and ET, if it is based on the NT is incompatible with what the NT tells us about God (Just, loving and merciful) and thus ET really seems invalid and a control - construct of men, who notably seem to want to use it to control us all in this life, rather than leave it to God.
Thus, by another route it seems that we get to where, if there is a god (and of course I think it is a human delusion) it is the god of all religions or none, as the demands and threats of religion are without validity, are the inventions of men and it is high time we did away with them.
I don't mean do away with religion. It has its uses, as rather illustrated by the 'faces of the divine' thread. But this business of wrangling about 'this is the right way to worship - you will be be punished if you do not believe what I tell you' - and blowing people's butts to oblivion in the name of god is all wrong and all of us, Li, Hepburn, Capo and Mystic are (I suggest) on the same side - personal religions are purely personal choices and nobody's religion or brand of God can claim to be the 'right' one.
Look at it this way. Why don't you pursue the Loch Ness Monster?
maybe because a huge majority of the worlds population today is convinced that there is a God. and maybe because there are thousands more eye witness accounts of God doing miraculous things in our world than there are of people sighting the Loch Ness Monster. just last month I watched my Brother get healed of a sickness he's had for over 8 years. look you can sit stubbornly and deny the existence of God all you want but a lot of people and I mean ALOT claim they have experienced him. and when ALOT of people testify to the existence of God than that has to make you at least consider the possibility enough to find out for yourself.
you can trace the origin of the Loch Ness Monster, but can you trace the origin of God?
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Go back, read your post and mine together and have a think about it. 
good question?
