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Kele, you have not debunked anything. And on the El Toro figuriens, all you have done is bring up the name of Charles Di Peso who took two days out of his busy life in the 1950s to consider over 30,000 figuriens. He confirmed those figurines were ancient when in Mexico, but changed his mind when he got back to the states. What kind of science is that?
Now years later, numerous others have had the same figurines time tested. And all four labs confirm them to be thousands of years old. Now can you debunk the claims of those labs? The first lab even sent a follow up letter confirming their dates were accurate. However, as soon as the first lab discovered they had tested the El Toro figurines they sent back a quick letter saying they were mistaken, and their dates must be wrong. LOL
Three other labs tested the figurines again and confirmed that the first labs dates were correct. Now tell me Kele, is the science of time testing crap, or is it just their results that do not agree with your worldview?
Actually, the ONLY lab which tested the figurines called the results "inconclusive."
Don Patton has provided what he claims to be accurate radiocarbon dates for the figures ranging from 6500 years to 1500 years. The laboratories that produced these dates have stated that they were inconclusive, but Dennis Swift, once again jumps in and claims that once the laboratories discovered what they were dating, they retracted their original dates. However, given the large number of pieces, one would expect them to be sent repeatedly for dating, and also as new technologies have emerged for alternative dating methodologies, that samples would have been available. Yet this is not the case. Of course dating an object depends on many factors, and objects can be contaminated, producing inconclusive results. Only by providing sample objects to an truly impartial lab can the case be proved in favor of the creationists. Until then, they are viewed universally as fraud - though they make an interesting tourist attraction, and footnote in the history of Mexico.
The internet is chock FULL of sources which repudiate the false claims of these faked pieces--you however, choose to believe those who withhold the figures from those who would have them independently dated. Just like your Glenrose buddy and his faux dino print.
You are in denial.
The Ica stone story is covered well on the page linked below. Anyone who investigates for themselves will discover that you, yourself, are a fraud; but the stones are not.
I would like to end on a positive note. I am very glad that there are some fundamentalists that are willing to take a stand and say that these Ica stones are fakes. Answers in Genesis states: Unfortunately, some initially plausible evidences for man’s contemporaneity with dinosaurs have later turned out to be mistaken. The controversial ‘Ica stones’—allegedly genuine pre-Inca engravings of dinosaurs from Peru—have since been shown to be a fraud. Creation 24(2) featured these with the cautionary label, ‘Too good to be true?’ In fact, it turns out that an unscrupulous Peruvian surgeon had purchased the stones from a local artist and installed them in his museum, claiming them to be ancient artefacts; the artist himself makes these stones for tourists and never claims them to be ancient. The Institute of Geological Sciences in London has since examined one of the stones and confirmed its modern origin. The fraud was exposed on a Nova television documentary in 2002, entitled ‘The Case of the Ancient Astronauts’.
This is probably the fourth time I've posted this article. I would appreciate it if some of the fundies would actually read it--it's by one of your own.
The internet is chock FULL of sources which repudiate the false claims of these faked pieces--you however, choose to believe those who withhold the figures from those who would have them independently dated. Just like your Glenrose buddy and his faux dino print.
Thank you. It would help if these things were found by a team of archaeoligists in situ and they couldn't be debunked even if they were horrified by the implications. These things come into the list of things from the crystal skulls (now proven fake, as though the believers cared) to the Jesus scroll. All anecdotal. though of course, the same could be said of a lot of Egyptian material and the dead sea scrolls.
See, this is what tells me that you DO NOT read any of the links that people post in this forum. You are blinded by your faith and it keeps you from seeing anything which might poke holes in your arguments.
Every link I've posted so far gives plenty of information to refute your statement above--from the scientific/archaeological review of your little clay figures, down to the fact that your precious Dr. Baugh refuses to allow expert access to the fake dino/human print because he knows that he will be exposed as a fraud.
As you said, personal opinions should never be a substitute for real science. Too bad you're incapable of following your own advice
I have read numerous links on the El Toro figurines, and from all that has been said of them, science fact, and not someones personal opinion is on their side. For it is (SCIENTIFIC LABS) that did the time testing that confirms their ancient ages. You come here and say I don't follow my own advice. Especially when I say personal opinions should never be a substitute for real science. Yet, I am not the one with the personal opinion here. I am the one that is pointing out the results that have come back from the (LABS) that tested the figurines. Your the one (IGNORING) their findings. Now can you dispute the dates that the labs have given us? And can you show us a real scientist who has refuted the results of those labs?
The only person you have brought to our attention to dispute the El Toro figurines was a man named Di Peso. And his comments were made a half a century ago. You do know, that science has progress since that time, don't you? And his arguements were disputed by others long ago. And the results of time testing on the figurines scientifically disputed his arguements as well. So now, your the one who is imbracing personal opinions over science. NOT ME.
I believe a true zombie would behave more like some in science today. They would continue to walk past warehouses of evidence never taking their eyes off their personal beliefs or theories. And when you try to show them evidence, they will just groan and say. "It all falseeeeeee, it's falseeeeeee." And when you ask them for a scientific review to confirm that belief. They would continue to walk mindlessly forward saying, "it's all falseeeeeee, science is on our side." Repeating this over and over, and doing this, without any scientific review. Now that's a real zombie.
And sadly, that's occuring in science today. And that's why so much of the evidence that would confirm that their theories are incorrect, are ignored.
LOL! I believe you. What you say there is somewhat correct except for a few small things. No unexpected, you've got it backwards as usual.
The zombies behave exactly like Creation-Extremists who mindlessly stumble past warehouses of evidence groaning, "BRAAAIINNS! I HAVE NO BRAAAAIINNS!" With arms outstretched they grab and claw and gnaw at anything regardless of how senseless it may be. They crave and devour any stray pseudoscience they come across. They can't tell the difference because their own brains have long withered away and dropped out of their ears which are no longer capable of hearing. And because they have no brains, they have no comprehension of things like...REALITY.
They thrive and feed on mistakes and misunderstandings. "ARRRRGH! MUST MOOORRE CONCEPTSSS OF LIVING DIIINOSAURRRS." When they find any nearby, they instinctively gorge themselves and move on. Any stray person they happen to come by becomes a victim just like themselves. They spread like the stench of some dark, foul infectious disease. All they can do is try to propagate by contaminating the innocent who can't recognize the illusions the zombies of creation-extremism.
"NOOOO," the victims cry out, "That's not right!" But their cries are quickly drowned out as the zombies bent on creation-extremism endlessly flop and wail and continue to mindlessly groan, "DIIINOSAURRRS AND HUUUMAANNS LIIVVED TOGETHHHER! THE BIBLLLEE SAYSSS SOOOOO! MUST REMOOOVE ALL REALITYYY FROM YOUUU! ARRRGH! SCIIIENCCE ISS WRONGGG! SCIIIENCCE ISS EVILLLL! COME FEEEEL THE BITE OF MYYY IGNORAAANCCEE! GURGLE-SLPUUT! BRAAAINNNS! MUST HAVE MORE BRAAAINNNS! GLORP! GLURGLE! SLURRRP! ERXYYSNYXXMLUGH"
Unfortunately, these zombies are hopelessly lost from the rest of humanity whom they detest and despise. They have long lost their abilities to understand anything and become emotionless drones who only know how to sputter out misconceptions.
It's a pretty sad thing to see happen. I don't know if some of these zombies are too far beyond the point of no return or not. Unfortunately, some of these extreme-creationist zombies seem to be completely lost and are too far gone for any hope of recovery. All that can be done is to continue to defend reality with facts so others might not fall victim to these mindless, unfeeling shells in human form.
Pay heed to these words: "Beware of the confusing shuffle and babble of the creation-extremist zombies! They are hungry and coming for YOUR BRAINS... NEXT!"
This is probably the fourth time I've posted this article. I would appreciate it if some of the fundies would actually read it--it's by one of your own.
The internet is chock FULL of sources which repudiate the false claims of these faked pieces--you however, choose to believe those who withhold the figures from those who would have them independently dated. Just like your Glenrose buddy and his faux dino print.
The first lab that tested the El Toro figurines was sent by Charles Hapgood. The lab that did the test was "Laboratory of Isotopes Inc. in New Jersey. That lab stated the the dates returned were. Sample 1. 1640 BC, sample 2. 4530 BC, and third sample returned a date of 1110 BC.
The second Lab that tested them occured in 1972, and those samples were sent to Dr. Froelich Rainey, who was the director of the Pennsylvania Museum for Thermoluminescent Dating. It was Arthur Young who submitted two of the figurines. The thermoluminescent dates returned showed the samples to be 2700 BC. And a follow up letter was sent that confirmed that their dates could be no more off then 5 or 10 percent at the most.
The third group of scientist that considered them, was at the University of Pennsylvania's. It was there where Dr. J.O. Everhart who was the Chairman of the Department of Ceramic Engineering. Dr. Earle R Caley one of the most respected archaelolgical chemist, and Dr. Ehlers who was an Ohio State University mineralogist in their geology department. Everyone of those scientist stated they did not believe the figurines were made in modern times. Nor did they believe that the someone tried to prepetuate a fraud.
In 1997 a fourth look at the figurines was done by Neil Steede, who was the President of the Early Sites Research Society West and Mexican Epigraphic Society. Neil tried to debunk the figurines by having them time tested again. Yet the lab results shock his group when the human figure was dated to 4000 BP, and the Dinosaur figurine was dated to 1500 BP.
In 1997 a fifth look at the figurines was done by a Japanese company that was sponsored by Nissi. It was a a program for Japanese T.V. that spoke of the Acambaro figurines. The the Narrator opened up a book from Japan that showed a Sauraloplus osborni, he at the same time picked up one of the El Toro Figurines that was very similar to the one displayed in their book.
The only claim I believe here is false, is the claim you have made suggesting that only (ONE) lab tested them. And the result was inconclusive. This claim appears to have little to do with (REALITY).
heee hee; I love a good documentary, nightBazzar! Can't rep you right now, but later!
Anyhow, Kele; so you have some real education in archeology, huh? Please, for our gathered and always interested audience, give us a quick summary on the utility of Carbon14 dating, as was done by C34's supposedly competant lab, on an inorganic rock artifact sample?
You see, he just won't listen to me, and keeps regurgitating his same tired and completely discredited line. Of course I know why, but perhaps he'll listen to you. He won't listen to PanTerra, who is a geologist, or me, who is a biologist/geologist. Perhaps you? I mean, three's a quorum, right?
It's quite predictable that he dismisses technical specialists here; because we're online, he thinks we're all as scientifically ill-educated as he has openly admitted to being. of course, Christian fundy webiste so-cvalled (but proven fraudulent or criminal) "scientists"? Those guys he does'nt even bother to check them out before quoting them. We do a qwuick check on google, and it ALWAYS comes up:
"John Smith, a well-known Creationist advocate, is under Federal indictment for tax evasion, willful mis-represenation, Internet fraud and gross mis-representation. His so-callled Doctorate is from a small, run-down shack on Church property in the tiny town of Kangaroo Droppings, Australia, where the local deacon fervently disavows all knowledge of, and respect for, the man!" And so on. Always. No longer surprising.
It's been suggested that he may well be one of those autobot robot websites that just continues to splurt out the same stuff no matter what you say. I certainly hope so, because if this is how a living breathing human thinks, one that might have some responsibility for the lives or happiness or, oh gawd, the education of others, we're in big trouble!
Because he cannot discern fact from BS, or, when presented with easily checked facts(via credible links) he doesn't read them, he dismisses them, and then reliably, moves on to re-gurgitate, again and again, the same stuff he scooped off the floor from his last splurt.....
Yum!
Do not dispair about his not ever acknowledging your clear and logical prior posts. Trust me, and the rest of us; we've been there with this guy for almost a year now. (Wait'll you hear his lines of reasoning for the literal Ark! It's quite amusing!) Oh, and don't expect him to answer questions that will box him into a corner. He's Teflon™ coated as regards logic. The only place he can debate is on-line, where he is not obligated to answer the questions, and we can't see his face and watch for his "bluff twitch".
Last edited by rifleman; 08-16-2009 at 11:11 AM..
Reason: typo-adds. More obfuscatory prevarications!
LOL! I believe you. What you say there is somewhat correct except for a few small things. No unexpected, you've got it backwards as usual.
The zombies behave exactly like Creation-Extremists who mindlessly stumble past warehouses of evidence groaning, "BRAAAIINNS! I HAVE NO BRAAAAIINNS!" With arms outstretched they grab and claw and gnaw at anything regardless of how senseless it may be. They crave and devour any stray pseudoscience they come across. They can't tell the difference because their own brains have long withered away and dropped out of their ears which are no longer capable of hearing. And because they have no brains, they have no comprehension of things like...REALITY.
They thrive and feed on mistakes and misunderstandings. "ARRRRGH! MUST MOOORRE CONCEPTSSS OF LIVING DIIINOSAURRRS." When they find any nearby, they instinctively gorge themselves and move on. Any stray person they happen to come by becomes a victim just like themselves. They spread like the stench of some dark, foul infectious disease. All they can do is try to propagate by contaminating the innocent who can't recognize the illusions the zombies of creation-extremism.
"NOOOO," the victims cry out, "That's not right!" But their cries are quickly drowned out as the zombies bent on creation-extremism endlessly flop and wail and continue to mindlessly groan, "DIIINOSAURRRS AND HUUUMAANNS LIIVVED TOGETHHHER! THE BIBLLLEE SAYSSS SOOOOO! MUST REMOOOVE ALL REALITYYY FROM YOUUU! ARRRGH! SCIIIENCCE ISS WRONGGG! SCIIIENCCE ISS EVILLLL! COME FEEEEL THE BITE OF MYYY IGNORAAANCCEE! GURGLE-SLPUUT! BRAAAINNNS! MUST HAVE MORE BRAAAINNNS! GLORP! GLURGLE! SLURRRP! ERXYYSNYXXMLUGH"
Unfortunately, these zombies are hopelessly lost from the rest of humanity whom they detest and despise. They have long lost their abilities to understand anything and become emotionless drones who only know how to sputter out misconceptions.
It's a pretty sad thing to see happen. I don't know if some of these zombies are too far beyond the point of no return or not. Unfortunately, some of these extreme-creationist zombies seem to be completely lost and are too far gone for any hope of recovery. All that can be done is to continue to defend reality with facts so others might not fall victim to these mindless, unfeeling shells in human form.
Pay heed to these words: "Beware of the confusing shuffle and babble of the creation-extremist zombies! They are hungry and coming for YOUR BRAINS... NEXT!"
Oh, I have it backwards? Then can you direct me to the scientific review of the El Toro figurines? You know, the review that would scientifically expose them as frauds. Can you give me the names of the Labs, and their locations? Can you give me the dates when this review occured? Can you give me the names of the scientist involoved? Can you give me the dates returned from their time testing review?
I mean after all, your the one claiming your beliefs are based on true science. Show me the science that rufutes the lab results that confirms the ancient ages of the El Toro figurines.
Or are you just going to say that a man named Di Peso said they were fakes 50 years ago. Is this the kind of science you imbrace? I believe only a zombie could believe Di Peso comments of 50 years ago, and ignore the lab results we see today.
heee hee; I love a good documentary, nightBazzar! Can't rep you right now, but later!
Anyhow, Kele; so you have some real education in archeology, huh? Please, for our gathered and always interested audience, give us a quick summary on the utility of Carbon14 dating, as was done by C34's supposedly competant lab, on an inorganic rock artifact sample?
You see, he just won't listen to me, and keeps regurgitating his same tired and completely discredited line. Of course I know why, but perhaps he'll listen to you. He won't listen to PanTerra, who is a geologist, or me, who is a biologist/geologist. Perhaps you? I mean, three's a quorum, right?
It's quite predictable that he dismisses technical specialists here; because we're online, he thinks we're all as scientifically ill-educated as he has openly admitted to being. of course, Christian fundy webiste so-cvalled (but proven fraudulent or criminal) "scientists"? Those guys he does'nt even bother to check them out before quoting them. We do a qwuick check on google, and it ALWAYS comes up:
"John Smith, a well-known Creationist advocate, is under Federal indictment for tax evasion, willful mis-represenation, Internet fraud and gross mis-representation. His so-callled Doctorate is from a small, run-down shack on Church property in the tiny town of Kangaroo Droppings, Australia, where the local deacon fervently disavows all knowledge of, and respect for, the man!" And so on. Always. No longer surprising.
It's been suggested that he may well be one of those autobot robot websites that just continues to splurt out the same stuff no matter what you say. I certainly hope so, because if this is how a living breathing human thinks, one that might have some responsibility for the lives or happiness or, oh gawd, the education of others, we're in big trouble!
Because he cannot discern fact from BS, or, when presented with easily checked facts(via credible links) he doesn't read them, he dismisses them, and then reliably, moves on to re-gurgitate, again and again, the same stuff he scooped off the floor from his last splurt.....
Yum!
Do not dispair about his not ever acknowledging your clear and logical prior posts. Trust me, and the rest of us; we've been there with this guy for almost a year now. (Wait'll you hear his lines of reasoning for the literal Ark! It's quite amusing!) Oh, and don't expect him to answer questions that will box him into a corner. He's Teflon™ coated as regards logic. The only place he can debate is on-line, where he is not obligated to answer the questions, and we can't see his face and watch for his "bluff twitch".
Yet rifleman, how is it that you state you imbrace science, yet refuse the lab results and comments coming from other scientist that confirm the ages of the El Toro figurines. It appears you would rather imbrace the comments from those sitting in the Peanut Gallery, more so then from respected scientist who have actually seen the El Toro figurines up close.
Do you only believe the dating of ancient artifacts when those dates agree with your personal beliefs? It appears to me, it is you who is rejecting facts that could be checked out. I have given the names of those labs. Do you believe they faked those dates? Or do you believe they all mistakenly made errors in their test that just happen to give similar dates?
And the reason I don't listen to you is because the truth never changes. Your general assumptions often do not agree with that truth. And so I do not agree. Now did those labs really give dates of fiction? Or did they all make mistakes that gave similar dates? Care to comment on this one?
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Well-documented behavioral "ticks"
