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What is more important is that nearly 100% of those with real intelligence, realize that organized religion is a criminal enterprise.
Oh come on, that's not fair and it's certainly not true. I'm very much an atheist but I wouldn't go nearly this far; that's just arrogant. I have a hard time understanding how well-educated, highly intelligent people can believe in a deity or religion more generally, but that doesn't mean they aren't well-educated and highly intelligent! I've got a number of extremely smart friends, students and professors who are believers. Hell, the most brilliant minds in the last thousand years have been believers: Einstein, Isaac Newton, Galileo, etc. We may not agree with believers about religion, we may not understand why they believe but that doesn't mean we can't be respectful.
Well, if you truly have faith in a Creator and if you're interested in figuring him/her/it out, you're eventually faced with a choice: Do you root your understanding in the Creation, as it unfolds itself in front of you, with the senses you've been given? Or would you rather trust your Holy Book, written and edited by men?
Understand that this is rather hypothetical on my part, as I have little in the way of faith myself. But I do find the universe way more awe-inspiring than any 10 holy books you'd care to mention.
From what little I know about theoretical understandings of the Big Bang, most physicists seem to believe that at the moment the Big Bang was initiated the laws of physics as we understand them simply didn't apply, but they began to apply far less than a second after the Big Bang began. As such, from my understanding it may be all but impossible to ever determine more out about it because of this issue.
Of course, I am not a physicist. I've never taken a physics course and I've never had any talent when it comes to the natural sciences. I feel grossy unqualified to even try to discuss this particular topic and I know that everyone posting on this forum is equally unqualified. It's interesting to read about but I don't find it interesting to debate because none of us know enough about it to actually have a clue what we're talking about. Anything we say is going to be grossly inaccurate and simple.
Who cares about the Bible's rules? Who has lived by Bible rules anyway? Not to mention that some Bible rules demand that people hurt each other.
Our society is mean and selfish, but much of such conditions have been supported by the religious for centuries.
I'll back you up on this one Visvaldis,
It's a common misconception among creationist or the religious in general that atheists are rebelling against or don't want to be constrained by moral or ethical rules such as those outlined in the bible -an idea that unfairly and inaccurately paints us with a hedonistic brush.
I would posit that most atheists actually hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than many of the religious.
I've said in a previous post that the problem with religion wrought morality is that it is largely fear based: fear of burning in eternal hellfire...etc
I think that it is much more noble, requires more discipline and more character to hold oneself accountable to a set of moral and ethical principles forged in the fires of personal and philosophical growth rather than those ascribed to some nebulous omnipotent deity.
Last edited by Zekester; 12-27-2009 at 11:36 PM..
Reason: typo
It's worse - there is no "before". Time and space is linked. It's like asking what is North of the North Pole. Enough to make a man's brain hurt.
Yup. Relativity, quantum physics and the uncertainty principle, curved time-space, speed of light constant relative to the observer, and time as a variable makes my head hurt also. Might as well try explaining it to a dog. No wonder so many take the easy way out and make a leap-of-faith that their holy book is the one true holy book that holds all the answers.
I'd love to learn all the answers to life, the universe and everything before I die, not that it affects my little life here on Earth, but doubt that man will get close to that knowledge in the next few generations.
I've whipped around the sun over 50 times at 65,000 mph in a solar system careening through the Milky Way galaxy at 491,000 mph which in turn is barreling towards the Hydra constellation at 1.34 million mph. Nope. It's no wonder I don't have all the answers and can't find my socks.
It's a common misconception among creationist or the religious in general that atheists are rebelling against or don't want to be constrained by moral or ethical rules such as those outlined in the bible -an idea that unfairly and inaccurately paints us with a hedonistic brush.
I would posit that most atheists actually hold themselves to a higher ethical standard than many of the religious.
I've said in a previous post that the problem with religion wrought morality is that it is largely fear based: fear of burning in eternal hellfire...etc
I think that it is much more noble, requires more discipline and more character to hold oneself accountable to a set of moral and ethical principals forged in the fires of personal and philosophical growth rather than those ascribed to some nebulous omnipotent deity.
I largely agree with this; I often find that the viewpoints espoused by more conservative fundamentalist Christians are actually quite immoral. To me, morality is more an issue of community and societal responsibility that stems from our ability to empathize with, and feel sympathy for, others and also something that stems from our common, shared humanity. It bothers me tremendously that there is so much suffering in this world that stems from poverty. There are so many people who are simply unable to meet their basic needs; almost a billion people on this planet suffer from chronic malnutrition, millions die every year from easily preventable and/or curable diseases... yet I see surprisingly little concern about this from many Christian fundamentalists (I don't want to overgeneralize this too much, I realize that there are exceptions). Rather, many of the more fundamentalist religious types seem to obsess about the private actions of individuals which largely do not infringe upon the lives of others; I don't see what morality has to do with such private actions! Why so much concern, for example, about what I as a gay man do in the privacy of my bedroom and so little concern for those dying of malaria in Sub-Saharan Africa?
Morality, in my eyes, is about improving lives, it is about what we can do as individuals and as communities to help those who are suffering from want. It is not about what we choose to do in our private lives as long as what we choose does not bring unwarranted harm to others.
This all ties in to your point about the 'emptiness' of many forms of religious morality. It so often seems that fundamentalists act 'morally' only because they fear eternal damnation and not because they truly empathize with others. This, quite frankly, seems immoral to me, or at least I don't understand how it can be classified as morality. See, in my view morality has a lot to do with intentions. If you do something 'moral' because you truly care about others, because you understand their pain and want to actually help them then you are acting moral. However, if you do something 'moral' because you fear that doing otherwise will bring harm to you then your action may be moral but you are not acting morally. True morality should be a function of our shared humanity and ability to empathize.
From what little I know about theoretical understandings of the Big Bang, most physicists seem to believe that at the moment the Big Bang was initiated the laws of physics as we understand them simply didn't apply, but they began to apply far less than a second after the Big Bang began. As such, from my understanding it may be all but impossible to ever determine more out about it because of this issue.
Of course, I am not a physicist. I've never taken a physics course and I've never had any talent when it comes to the natural sciences. I feel grossy unqualified to even try to discuss this particular topic and I know that everyone posting on this forum is equally unqualified. It's interesting to read about but I don't find it interesting to debate because none of us know enough about it to actually have a clue what we're talking about. Anything we say is going to be grossly inaccurate and simple.
Well-made point, and I have no more than an interested layman's understanding myself.
But the point I (clumsily) tried to make stands: If there's a discrepancy between what is written in whatever scripture you put your faith in and the universe, it's pretty likely that the universe has it right.
The Jesuits get it - study the Universe to understand the Creator, and study scripture for the moral and ethical lessons. While I don't share their faith, I wholeheartedly respect their stance.
One day, Science and Reasoning will stand above religion and folklore.
That is the way it should be. I have hope!
Religion is personal and a belief. It cannot be proven as a fact.
At the same time your science that you hold so dear can not disprove God. But yet somehow you have created a personal belief that God does not exist based on this science.
Strange how your belief in something than can not be proven outweighs my belief in God.
Amazing how God has outlasted most of the B.S. that (mostly liberal) humans have created on the planet since inception....
God 1
Humans 0
Game in Progress...
What's really amazing is how God apparently has a political affiliation and identifies with the "religious right" vs. the dreaded "liberals." I can see how people think that religion is "outdated" considering how obknoxious some people have become. I personally don't care what anyone believes in (their religion or lack thereof), but darn it, when a certain segment of our society thinks that they can legislate their own morality from their own interpretation of their particular bible, then something is terribly wrong.
I was raised a Christian my whole life, but I certainly do NOT identify with this new breed of so-called Christians, the "liberal-hating"/ Glen Beck wannabe's. In the end, I think that people embrace a higher power and spirituality, just not the B.S. that you're referring to. I get so sick of one group of people who thinks they are better than another group of people based on political affiliation/religion. I think that's what people are entirely sick of.
At the same time your science that you hold so dear can not disprove God. But yet somehow you have created a personal belief that God does not exist based on this science.
Strange how your belief in something than can not be proven outweighs my belief in God.
Your God you hold so dear cannot prove Himself either, eh?
YOU believe in God. It is up to YOU to prove it. And the Bible does not count.
Science has more than enough evidence to prove it is real.
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