KTVU vid of brazen hold up at El Cerrito Little Caesar's store (Oakland: 2014, crime)

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by 04kL4nD

There's no smoking gun theory as to why violent crime rates have steadily declined over the last few decades. Some believe it's unleaded gasoline, others believe it's less restriction to abortion, others point to higher incarceration rates, etc. There's no smoking gun proving that laxer gun laws is leading the downward trend of crime either.

You were just linking lax gun laws to an increase in crime, which is patently false, since guns have become more accessible and crime has decreased.

In fact, people with a concealed weapons permit at 7 times less likely to commit a crime than someone without. Based on ststistics, a reasonable person would hope the man standing next them has a CCW permit than doess not.
http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant.pdf

[dalparadise]

Originally Posted by bmw335xi

I think it's good when people show different angles. You seem to get very upset when anything positive is mentioned. I still think there isn't a general correlation one way or the other. However, when it comes to me personally, it will make a huge different whether I'm armed or not.

I'm not upset in the least. What gives you this idea? I simply can't follow your line of thinking and find it impossible to have an exchange with you of any substance on this topic, due to your seemingly fluid sense of conviction. With each response, your point subtlety shifts and you pepper in non-sequiturs that make it seem like you are consciously evading any meaningful dialogue, in favor of opportunities to deliver canned talking points.

So, fine--I accept what you feel is right for you. No one would deny you your personal feelings of how you conduct yourself within the law. I merely asserted the point that the idea of returning to the Wild West, where people wear guns around town is asinine. It is a formula for accidental shootings. Policy makers have to find a balance that serves the greatest good. Our energy in this debate would be best spent in figuring out where to draw that line. It is wasted in non-sequitur arguments about Liberal vs. Conservative politics and the rest of the diversions you kept trying to insert into it.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by dalparadise

I'm not upset in the least. What gives you this idea? I simply can't follow your line of thinking and find it impossible to have an exchange with you of any substance on this topic, due to your seemingly fluid sense of conviction. With each response, your point subtlety shifts and you pepper in non-sequiturs that make it seem like you are consciously evading any meaningful dialogue, in favor of opportunities to deliver canned talking points.

So, fine--I accept what you feel is right for you. No one would deny you your personal feelings of how you conduct yourself within the law. I merely asserted the point that the idea of returning to the Wild West, where people wear guns around town is asinine. It is a formula for accidental shootings. Policy makers have to find a balance that serves the greatest good. Our energy in this debate would be best spent in figuring out where to draw that line. It is wasted in non-sequitur arguments about Liberal vs. Conservative politics and the rest of the diversions you kept trying to insert into it.

The fear of the "Wild West" is completly baseless. Over 80% of states offer ccw to any person with a clean record, a few states don't even require a permit (almost anyone can carry a gun concealed without approval from the man) and a few states (like california) make you prove you need to protect yourself. With such a wide sampling, if people with ccw caused the "Wild West" the data would show it. Of course the data shows it is either neutral or a small decrease of crime with the increase of ccw holders.

In summary, your fear is baseless.

Now with that said, if you don't want to carry a gun to protect yourself, great. No one is forcing you to do so, but don't try and make that decision for other people who would like to carry a gun to protect themselves and their families.

[04kL4nD]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

You were just linking lax gun laws to an increase in crime, which is patently false, since guns have become more accessible and crime has decreased.

In fact, people with a concealed weapons permit at 7 times less likely to commit a crime than someone without. Based on ststistics, a reasonable person would hope the man standing next them has a CCW permit than doess not.
http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant.pdf

I was?

I posted an article that discussed the insane gun violence uptick in ST LOUIS, which coincidentally happens to be located in a super red, pro-gun state. Draw whatever conclusions you want, but the fact is that people in St Louis have no problems getting guns, or using them. Are you suggesting that the numbers are made up?

I never suggested anything about NATIONAL trends. In fact, I specifically mentioned that the overall decrease in crime is still somewhat of a mystery. In any event, your little theory doesn't seem to hold much water when you look at a city like St Louis, now does it?

Also, if you're going to actually participate in an intellectual debate, try to submit more scholarly sources than the garbage you're linking. Thanks.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by 04kL4nD

I was?

I posted an article that discussed the insane gun violence uptick in ST LOUIS, which coincidentally happens to be located in a super red, pro-gun state. Draw whatever conclusions you want, but the fact is that people in St Louis have no problems getting guns, or using them. Are you suggesting that the numbers are made up?

I never suggested anything about NATIONAL trends. In fact, I specifically mentioned that the overall decrease in crime is still somewhat of a mystery. In any event, your little theory doesn't seem to hold much water when you look at a city like St Louis, now does it?

Also, if you're going to actually participate in an intellectual debate, try to submit more scholarly sources than the garbage you're linking. Thanks.

St. Louis is actually a very blue area in a red state and makes up the majority of crime for the state. Believe it or not, it isn't people with ccw permits commiting the crimes.

My theory is actually backed up by statistics, you dismissing the research out of whole cloth just shows how jaded you are.

Maybe this study out of Harvard would meet your approval.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/...useronline.pdf

[04kL4nD]

What difference does it make whether it's a blue or red city? Guns are easy to get in MO because it's a very pro-gun state and gun violence is out of control in St Louis. Period. I never said that STL's problem with gun violence is ONLY due to lax gun laws. In fact, if you put your thinking cap on, you'd realize there's a whole host of complicated issues like poverty, racial tensions, the drug trade, gang violence, failing schools, and a sluggish economy play their part in fostering a culture of violence and you can't just pin it all on one thing. You're really caught up with this CCW nonsense, and like a typical gun nut, you think everybody wants to take away your precious guns and everyone is after you. Get a grip, man.

[bmw335xi]

The fact of the matter is there are millions upon millions of guns in the US, so banning the sale of them isn't going to do anything to prevent gun-related crime because criminals don't care about whether the gun is legal or not. All it will do is hurt law abiding citizens.

[04kL4nD]

When did I ever say I wanted to ban all guns for everyone? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Gun nuts are so convinced that everyone wants to make sure NOBODY has any guns ever, for any reason, and it's just not the case. It's way too late to ever completely eliminate guns in this country, and those of us living in reality, acknowledge this. We just don't think it's a great idea to allow mentally unstable gun nuts unfettered access to them. A lot of us think things like background checks, waiting periods, and bans on assault rifles and other insane firearms are prudent too. Oh but wait. Gun laws in this country are TOO restrictive. We need MORE GUNS to feel safe!!1

In fact, go ahead and arm yourself to the teeth. You're the one that's more likely to accidentally shoot a family member or yourself, commit suicide with your own fire arm, or have your own weapon used against you in a robbery. I've got other things to worry about than your own stupidity or bad luck if anything happens to you.

[04kL4nD]

Originally Posted by NickB1967

Compared to New York, Chicago, Cleveland and Detroit? You bet I do. Talk about ignoring facts. But you leftist dupes just want to make us all victims and appease the savages.....

Um, you do realize that NYC is one of the safest cities in the country, if not the entire world, right? This isn't 1980 anymore. And NYC is almost as commie pinko liberal as crazy SF is. Almost.

And Cleveland isn't exactly a blue city, so you're really all over this place with this one. LOL

[bmw335xi]

Originally Posted by 04kL4nD

Um, you do realize that NYC is one of the safest cities in the country, if not the entire world, right? This isn't 1980 anymore. And NYC is almost as commie pinko liberal as crazy SF is. Almost.

And Cleveland isn't exactly a blue city, so you're really all over this place with this one. LOL

NYC became safe because of stop and frisk and buying homeless one way tickets out of the city...