Moved to the Bay for 1 year from out of state, moved back. My review of it. (San Francisco: middle-class, how much)

[houstonview]

a lot of cons but look at a PRO

I'm about to move to the Bay me and my wife were discussing this last night, way we see it is its the price to live in a nice city. Look at it as a investment also, you mention retirement well a 500-800K nice home in the bay lets say berkeley, L.A, NEW YORK with good schools is going to worth $1,000,000-1,500,000 easy 10 years before retirement if you're 30 now, lets say you were smart to have cheap condo/home in a low tax area you're renting out to fall back on once you sell or to pass down that increases in value also, but not as much as a desired place like the areas listed above. well you walk away with $1-1.5mil , another home to fall back on and a LOAD of cash to buy a vacation condo outside of the US.

the best part is you lived your life were you really wanted to live it : )

[houstonview]

the bay is crazy expensive but it also has some crazy salaries, its like the land of opportunity my wife was making $55k nursing in hoist on, she literally walked away with 2 offers for $100-120K with only one year of experience (and these weren't even major companies) a lot of others paid even more that required 2+ years to apply.

[shooting4life]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

How so?

What's the median income in Silicon Valley? 100k.

What is a reasonable purchase price for such an income? 300-500k, somewhere around there.

So whatever is available in your area that one could afford to purchase or rent, if they are paid the median salary, is middle class housing.

In a flyover state like Arizona or Texas, the median income will allow you to purchase a single family home in an excellent school district. In a desirable area, it means a two bedroom condo or apartment.

We don't live in the middle of nowhere. This isn't a flyover state. It is a desirable area. People who are paid high salaries want to live here and are willing to pay a price that others cannot afford in order to get a single family home in the exact location where they want to live. That means the SFH is going to be the most expensive housing option. Therefore someone who is paid a middle class salary -- the median salary in the area -- should not expect to be able to purchase that.

You can't find a house in the Bay Area for 300-500k unless you are going to commute for 4+ hours a day.

[WizardOfRadical]

Originally Posted by houstonview

the bay is crazy expensive but it also has some crazy salaries, its like the land of opportunity my wife was making $55k nursing in hoist on, she literally walked away with 2 offers for $100-120K with only one year of experience (and these weren't even major companies) a lot of others paid even more that required 2+ years to apply.

For a lateral transfer or promotion? Even tech companies will not pay double the industry standard for most jobs, including executive positions. They might pay to move you out, increase your salary a bit, and give ok bonuses. But its a myth that jobs pay more in CA to comp the high costs. You just have to lower your standards and prepare for a higher income tax burden.

[Anika783]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

We don't live in the middle of nowhere. This isn't a flyover state. It is a desirable area. People who are paid high salaries want to live here and are willing to pay a price that others cannot afford in order to get a single family home in the exact location where they want to live. That means the SFH is going to be the most expensive housing option. Therefore someone who is paid a middle class salary -- the median salary in the area -- should not expect to be able to purchase that.

At first I thought this was a reasonable argument, but then the image of living in an Indian slum came to mind. Imagine a city of 99% slum dwellers, and 1% ultra rich. The ultra rich have all the nice houses and everyone else lives in the slum, making less than a dollar a day, with no plumbing or electricity. The median salary in that area would be a dollar a day, and, by your logic, the dollar a day is a middle class salary, and a slum dwelling is a middle class lifestyle. That same slum dweller can go to another city and, without changing his field of work, get an actual house. Does it really make sense that in both cities he is to be considered middle class?

[houstonview]

Originally Posted by WizardOfRadical

For a lateral transfer or promotion? Even tech companies will not pay double the industry standard for most jobs, including executive positions. They might pay to move you out, increase your salary a bit, and give ok bonuses. But its a myth that jobs pay more in CA to comp the high costs. You just have to lower your standards and prepare for a higher income tax burden.

Typo that was NURSING coming from Houston. (1yr experience) and other jobs paid even more that she needed 2+ years of experience to apply to, she will looking at those next year.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by shooting4life

You can't find a house in the Bay Area for 300-500k unless you are going to commute for 4+ hours a day.

Did I say house?

I said small two bedroom condo or apartment.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by Anika783

At first I thought this was a reasonable argument, but then the image of living in an Indian slum came to mind. Imagine a city of 99% slum dwellers, and 1% ultra rich.

Huh? More like London or Paris.

The median income in London = 70k.

The median home price in London = 700k.

So it's the same situation, for the same reason. London is desirable. Salaries are high. So people who make a lot of money are willing to pay more than what the middle class can afford in order to get those rare single family homes in London.

Does it really make sense that in both cities he is to be considered middle class?

Yeah, middle class housing is whatever the middle class can afford. Major cities don't have many SFHs -- at least not many available for sale at any given time -- so they are very expensive there. Whereas if you go to an area that is not desirable, the price is lower, but so is your salary. Some people are upset that a middle class income doesn't produce "the middle class lifestyle" everywhere in the world, but not everywhere in the world has enough SFHs available for that to be possible, especially not large, developed, desirable cities. This is a ridiculously expensive area because it is highly desirable, and people with high incomes desire to live here.

It has probably been centuries since the middle class owned their own single family homes in London. Most live in "flats".

Same here.

[neutrino78x]

The London Telegraph is a highly credible newspaper in London with a right wing bias. Here they are talking about the high cost of living in London. Single family homes are expensive in desirable areas that have a high median income.

Average London house price hits £500,000 as capital's housing market shows no sign of losing steam - Telegraph

Note that 500,000 pounds sterling is currently about 652,000 USD, according to Google. Also the median income is a little lower than the Bay Area, the equivalent of about 70,000 in USD. Looks like they're counting condos/flats as "homes", though. I would imagine the cost of an actual single family home in London is astronomical. I'm not even sure there are any single family homes in London these days. They might all be outside of the city of London, unless you count a townhouse (brownstone) as a SFH.

[AZJD]

Neutrino I agree with your logic if one is living IN a city like SF. Or very, very close by. You don't buy SFH's unless you are extremely wealthy.

My point is that it is beyond ridiculous that a high paying job (I consider $100k or more a high paying job, despite$100k really not going far if one has a family) now only gets you a not so great SFH, an hour away from SF, Oakland, or San Jose. In higher crime areas with poor ranked schools. And many of the people living in these areas (such as a Concord, Pittsburg, or Antioch) are not similar in lifestyle, education, etc. It's a very odd dynamic.

I don't see how an educated, highly compensated person with children would WANT to live in a 1964 built, 800 sq ft 2 bed /1 bath condo with a car port. Most people do that when they are 18 years old. Not an adult with a family.

We rented a SFH in Concord and my neighbor (also in a SFH) would sort through our garbage weekly. Lol

Much happier visiting the Bay...although I would love to live there in a comfortable lifestyle that would make our family happy. But we need $200k to make that happen.

Until then, we are able to save a ton of money living in Az and send my kids to 8,9,10 ranked schools and be in communities with heavy parental involvement and little to no crime at all.