Southern Living Magazine's Top 10 Texas Cities 2014 (Houston, McGregor: best cities, how much, home)

[TexasReb]

=Midessan;33344659]So anyone want to beat a dead horse?

No, but apparently you do, for whatever reason. Perhaps just feeling bored and want to provoke a reaction...?

Regardless, you got what you wanted.

Why are they including cities on their list that are not even in the South?

Wellll, for one thing -- which you would know if you had bothered to do your initial homework -- is that the criterion Southern Living magazine uses to define the South for marketing purposes is the same one used by the U.S. Census Bureau. To wit: http://www.census.gov/geo/maps-data/.../us_regdiv.pdf

Perhaps you should take up your issue of defining the South in this particular realm with the original source, hmmmm?

Anyway, as has been pointed out countless times -- including the numerous threads on CD concerning this topic -- there are literally scores of definitions of the South -- whether from individual or publications. This definitely includes the Texas forum where all positions and rationales for them have been covered many times before. Thus, this is why I advance that the wording of your post really had nothing in mind but to beat a dead horse for the reasons cited earlier, not for an honest desire for information (which again you could have easily checked out for yourself.

[TexasReb]

=Jack Lance;33348683]I'm sure if this publication had made that distinction they would have heard a lot from people who would have said, how dare you divide this state like that. I understand your point but its probably not a good idea for them to do that.

Irrelevant. The publication -- see above -- uses the basic Census Bureau definition for marketing purposes, which does not divide states.

On another note what does that say about Texas, that many people consider themselves in another region and, I assume feel they have more in common with people in other parts of the country than they do other Texans?

It states but a truism. Just as people in many others states of the South consider themselves to live in another region. The important thing is -- see the many-times posted studies/surveys on this subject in recent threads -- that show the clear majority of Texans do consider themselves to live in the South. So I flip the question and ask what does that say? BTW -- if you don't feel like looking back at the threads in question, then I will re-post them here if you like!

Oh heck I will do it anyway and save you the trouble. Last included in the thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/texas...-referred.html

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Southern Focus Poll (with comments by Dr. John Shelton Reed who conducted the poll via the UNC at Chapel Hill in the Southern Studies department), as well as an article on the study which appeared in many newspapers when it was first released:

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

***********

CHAPEL HILL Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and you're likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there werent born there," he said. "In fact, most of them werent born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why Im glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but havent been able to before."


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From the Annals of the Association of American Geographers, In Vol. 7, Number 3 of this journal (September 1987), in the article Changing Usage of Four American Regional Labels, Professor James R. Shortridge (Department of Geography, University of Kansas) seeks, through a statistically random analysis of identification cards sent out with a product, to identify contemporary trends of regional self-identification in terms of the four labels East, West, South, and Midwest. Here is a ranked list in terms of percentage of people who chose South as their primary regional identification.

More than 75%: 1. Louisiana 194/199 97.49% 2. Mississippi 72/75 96% 3. Alabama 122/130 93.85% 4. Florida 244/277 88.09% 5. Georgia 147/168 87.5% 6. Tennessee 156/190 82.11%

More than 50%: 1. Arkansas 56/77 72.73% 2. South Carolina 66/91 72.53% 3. Texas 526/739 71.18% 4. North Carolina 87/145 60%

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Midessan

I would say that any place west of I-35 is not really southern. So cities like San Angelo and Lubbock are not southern. Cities like Tyler definitely are.

Yes? That is your definition. Some agree with you, some disagree....and some are in between. So what are adding that is either original and/or has not been said countless times before?

In any event, the main topic involves Southern Living's definition, not yours or anyone else's. If you want to beat the dead horse as to inclusion in the South -- for whatever the hell reason -- then why not do it in one of the almost countless threads already done to death on the subject rather than this one?

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Midessan

True. But I don't think you will see them do an article on say "Top California Cities" anytime soon.

No, you are correct, they won't. But the comparison is not valid in the least. Southern Living doesn't cover California. "Sunset" magazine is the one that covers the census bureau West. And they may well have done an article on Top California Cities. Have you checked to see if they haven't?

Sunset - Your Guide to Living in the West

Soooo, thus -- by the same token, it would be fair to say that Sunset will never publish an article on Top Texas cities, either!

But anyway, time to hit the sack for tonite. Y'all all have a good one!

[Jack Lance]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

Irrelevant. The publication -- see above -- uses the basic Census Bureau definition for marketing purposes, which does not divide states.



It states but a truism. Just as people in many others states of the South consider themselves to live in another region. The important thing is -- see the many-times posted studies/surveys on this subject in recent threads -- that show the clear majority of Texans do consider themselves to live in the South. So I flip the question and ask what does that say? BTW -- if you don't feel like looking back at the threads in question, then I will re-post them here if you like!

Oh heck I will do it anyway and save you the trouble. Last included in the thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/texas...-referred.html

Wow , you make a guy work to post with you don't you....All the stats are great "but" if the same respondents were given other choices for regional identities such as Western, Southwestern, or perhaps Texan as a regional identity, what would the result be?

The US Census bureau is not omniscient and I do not accept their regional designations as gospel. Plus I do think one could consider themselves to be more than one of the above, and I'm sure many do.

[Midessan]

So the Federal Government considers the District of Columbia to be part of the South? That is both hilarious and ironic.

[KathrynAragon]

Look at a map and then tell me that Texas isn't a southern state. Damn.

[Jack Lance]

Originally Posted by KathrynAragon

Look at a map and then tell me that Texas isn't a southern state. Damn.

Looking at the map you could make a case that Texas is a western state.



Or Southwestern



Different maps say different stuff ?

[KathrynAragon]

Look at a map of the entire US. Texas is OBVIOUSLY southern geographically. I mean, damn. It's also right in the center of the southern states, so it's quite fitting that about half of it generally identifies as southWESTERN and the other half generally identifies as simply southern. But...there simply can be no valid argument that Texas is not a southern state, because...well, it IS southern.

Not only that, it was part of the Confederacy. And the eastern half of the state has distinct cultural and historical ties to other southern states.

I can understand people in the west side of the state not identifying with traditionally southern culture, and I respect that. However, it's weird to me that some insist on denying that Texas is a southern state.

[Jack Lance]

I posted earlier that many Texans probably do identify with more than one regional identity. When I was in school in a district in Texas, I was taught that Texas was a "Southwestern" state, even though many say I was, and am, in the most "Southern" part of the state, so I will always hold that identity (Southwestern that is).

As far as Texas being Southern simply because it was once part of the "Confederacy" . One, Texas was also an independent nation at one time, which I think has more to do with the "Texas" identity than a brief affiliation with the CSA, and two, Sam Houston told Texas "not" to go Confederate and he was right...